The purpose of this Reddit post here is to have it translated into various languages.
David Tupou’s Full Testimony: Escaping Shincheonji
Introduction
David Tupou, also known as Vita, shares his harrowing journey of being drawn into and eventually escaping Shincheonji, a controversial religious organization from South Korea. His testimony serves as a cautionary tale about the deceptive tactics of cults and the importance of grounding one’s faith in biblical truth.
Early Life and Faith Journey
David grew up in a Christian household but lacked a personal relationship with God. He attended church sporadically and was more focused on academic and social achievements. His lack of deep biblical knowledge made him vulnerable to deceptive teachings.
Key points:
- Upbringing: Raised in a Tongan family, David spent 10 years in the U.S., three years in the Solomon Islands, and has lived in Auckland, New Zealand, for the past decade.
- Faith: While he attended Sunday school and church, his faith was superficial, driven more by cultural expectations than a genuine relationship with God.
The Deceptive Recruitment
David’s introduction to Shincheonji began innocently. A mutual friend invited him to a Bible study at a local church. The study seemed normal at first, but over time, the group’s teachings became increasingly exclusive and controlling.
Key tactics used by Shincheonji:
- Love Bombing: Members showed excessive affection and support to create a sense of belonging.
- Isolation: David was encouraged to distance himself from family and friends.
- Drip-Feeding Doctrine: Controversial teachings were introduced gradually, withholding the full truth until members were deeply invested.
- Buddy System: David was paired with a “buddy,” who was actually a Shincheonji member tasked with monitoring him.
Becoming a Member
After months of study, David was officially registered as a member. At this point, the group revealed their true beliefs about Lee Man-hee, the founder of Shincheonji, who claims to be the “Promised Pastor” and the only one who can interpret the Bible.
Key beliefs of Shincheonji:
- Exclusive Salvation: Only registered members of Shincheonji can be saved.
- Apocalyptic Focus: They believe they are living in the fulfillment of Revelation and that Lee Man-hee is the key to salvation.
- Isolation and Control: Members are encouraged to cut ties with family and friends, avoid independent research, and dedicate significant time to the group.
Life Inside Shincheonji
David’s life became consumed by Shincheonji. He attended multiple weekly classes, each lasting several hours, and was expected to recruit new members.
Key aspects of life in Shincheonji:
- Time Commitment: David spent 15–20 hours per week on Shincheonji activities, including classes, recruitment, and fellowship.
- Mental Manipulation: Members were taught to view outsiders as spiritually dead and to see themselves as the only true believers.
- Deception: Even within the group, members used fake names and identities to maintain secrecy.
The Turning Point
The turning point came during the COVID-19 lockdowns, which gave David time to reflect. He began to question the group’s teachings and researched Shincheonji online, discovering its cult-like nature.
Key moments:
- Research: David found testimonies from former members and resources like Examining the SCJ and whatismountzion.co.nz, which exposed Shincheonji’s deceptive practices.
- Realization: He realized that Shincheonji’s teachings contradicted the Bible and that he had been manipulated.
- Decision to Leave: With the help of a friend, David decided to leave Shincheonji, cutting off all contact with the group.
Leaving Shincheonji
Leaving Shincheonji was not easy. David struggled with feelings of bitterness and confusion but eventually found healing through a renewed focus on biblical truth and fellowship with a local church.
Key steps in his recovery:
- Support System: David reached out to his sister and close friends, who provided emotional and spiritual support.
- Biblical Grounding: He began studying the Bible independently, focusing on passages like Galatians 1:6–10 and 1 John 4:1–3, which warn against false teachings.
- Church Community: David joined Waterhole Church, a local house church in Auckland, where he found accountability and encouragement.
Lessons Learned
David’s story highlights the importance of:
- Biblical Literacy: Knowing the Bible helps discern truth from deception.
- Community: Being part of a healthy church provides accountability and support.
- Critical Thinking: Questioning teachings and researching independently can prevent manipulation.
Final Thoughts
David’s testimony is a powerful reminder of the dangers of cults like Shincheonji. His story emphasizes the need for vigilance, biblical grounding, and reliance on God’s truth.
Key Scriptures:
- Galatians 1:6–10: Warns against false gospels.
- 1 John 4:1–3: Encourages testing the spirits to see if they are from God.
- Philippians 3:10: Encourages knowing Christ and the power of His resurrection.
Conclusion
David Tupou’s journey from deception to freedom is a testament to God’s faithfulness. His testimony serves as a warning and an encouragement to all believers to stay rooted in the truth of Scripture and to be vigilant against false teachings.
For more information, visit Fresh Truth Ministries or explore resources like Examining the SCJ and whatismountzion.co.nz.
This transcript has been paraphrased.
WARNINGS AGAINST RELIGIOUS CHRISTIAN CULTS-DAVID TUPOU | FRESH TRUTH PODCAST EP 40
[Ronji]
Hey, everyone! Thanks for listening to the Fresh Truth Podcast and joining Fresh Truth Ministries. When we talk about God, the Bible, Christianity, churches, and society on our podcast and other content, Fresh Truth Ministries loves having deep conversations and kōrero. Our guests come from a wide range of places and have a wide range of beliefs and points of view.
At Fresh Truth Ministries, we encourage these brave conversations about faith, but that doesn’t mean that we agree with everything our guests say. Fresh Truth is very clear about what we stand for and what we believe. Visit www.freshtruthministries.com to read our statement of faith. If you have any questions, please feel free to get in touch with us. We want to have honest conversations that honor God and work through these big problems with all of our guests. Our goal is for God to be praised, for the whole gospel to be preached, and for God’s precious word to be used alone and without error. Only God deserves praise.
As the beautiful Psalmist says, “O Lord, my strength and my redeemer, let the words I speak and the thoughts I think be acceptable in your sight.” Hello, family! I want to greet you again in the name of Jesus Christ, who is holy and wonderful. Hi, this is Ronji from Fresh Truth.
This broke out among a group of Christians from South Auckland who love the gospel, the Bible, and arguing for what the Bible says. Thank God there is another podcast. Thanks for becoming a family.
I only want to read a verse from the Bible to show how holy I am. It also has a lot to do with what we’re talking about today. It comes from Galatians 1, and I’m going to read verses 1 through 10. Paul was an apostle, but he wasn’t made by people or for people. He was made by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead.
All the brothers who are with me in the churches in Galatia: Grace and peace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for our sins so that he could save us from this evil world, as God and our Father would have it. To them be glory forever and ever. Yes. I can’t believe how quickly you’ve turned away from the one who called you to the grace of Christ and toward another gospel. It’s not really a different gospel, but there are some who are bothering you and want to change it.
However, if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than the one we preached, may that person be cursed. As we already said, I say it again: let him be cursed if he preaches any other gospel to you than the one you already believe. Family, why did I read that verse? It’s about Galatians and Paul’s letter to the churches there that are arresting or false teaching, Judaizing and legalizing, and telling us that we need to go back to the law to be right with God.
Why did I read that? That’s because it has everything to do with this podcast today. And I think the first thing we really wanted to say was that we do this out of love.
Another part of that love is this young man sitting next to me in the podcast. The things he’s going to say tonight are filled with courage and love. I’d like to welcome David Tupou now. That’s what I call you a lot because that’s your rap name.
But Vita, it’s a real pleasure to have you here to talk about the things we’ll be talking about. Just so you know, the group or organization we’re talking about is called Shinji Onji, not Shinji Ronji. Get that joke out of the way, people who start.
Let’s not make that joke. Yes, yes, yes. No making fun of.
Vita, be quiet. But we’re talking about the South Korean group Shinji Onji. We’re going to look into it some more.
Vita is part of the reason we have him, though, because he knows this group. Keep in mind that I said “organization.” He really, really knows a lot about the group.
So, Vita, do you want to quickly introduce yourself, bro? Your family history; where did you grow up? What’s making your hair so curly?
Things like that.
[David]
Yes, of course. Thanks for having me. Thank the Lord.
My name is Devita Da Eluakihelau Tupou. Some people call me David, though. I was born in Tonga and grew up in the United States for ten years.
My dad has been in the Sullivan Islands for almost 20 years, and I went there for three years. After that, I lived in Auckland, New Zealand, for ten years.
[Ronji]
Okay. I stopped there to ask Vita what was going on. But I also want to say hello to Canaan.
Canaan hasn’t been on the podcast in a while because he’s been scared of the mean emails that people send him. Hey Canaan, it’s great to see you. What have you been doing?
Is Dietra okay?
[Canaan]
It’s okay, man. Things at work, church, and in my marriage were still going on. In other words, everything has gone well.
[Ronji]
Yes, Canaan has a lot going on. Also, it’s cool that you’ve been teaching a lot more at church, which is something we’ve been talking about. So, family, we’re going to hear a few questions from Canaan about Shinji Onji and maybe even cults or cultic groups in general.
But Vita, do you want to quickly talk about your walk with the Lord? I know it has something to do with what we’re talking about. So don’t do anything that could give away the story.
But how has your journey with the Lord been? Were you raised in a Christian home? What’s going on today?
How long is the trip?
[David]
Yeah, that’s a typical islander. I went to Sunday school as a child. I became an adult.
I once did whakame. After that, I believe my family told me to never speak Tongan again. That’s why I stopped whakame.
I was going to ask you to talk Tongan live today. But I never really got to know the Lord as a person. I was only going to church to look like a good boy.
And until I went to the best school in the country, Wesley College.
[Ronji]
This isn’t about telling people about schools.
[David]
It’s about God. That’s where I heard these sweet hymns sung by young men about a sweet God. And that’s when I began to think about my faith.
But my own goals—like getting ducks, the top spot in my class, and other things at Wesley—kept pulling me away. Because of this, I never really dug into the Bible, and I never joined a church. So, even though I was zealous until college, it wasn’t based on real faith in God’s word until, yeah.
Because of that, I was open to this organization as well as others. Also, I’m currently going to Waterhole, a small house church in Oduhu, New Zealand, where we are fed the word often and always pushed to do our own research and read the word for ourselves. We’ll talk more about that later. That means it’s an active faith now instead of then.
Also, I’m really walking with the Lord now.
[Ronji]
To help you remember, Vita, there was a time when a preacher named Ronji gave a message around Passover or Easter. We talked about things like the Lord’s Table, communion, and other similar things. If you remember, which I doubt since you didn’t pay attention to what I preached, then do you remember that conversation? And it was; we talked about not taking it in a way that isn’t proper (1 Corinthians 11).
And the Bible makes it clear that if you take the Lord’s Table in an unworthy way, you will be judged. Do you remember what happened at that time? Even though I’ve only known you for a few years, that seemed like a very important time in your journey with the Lord.
I think that was the beginning of when I was coming back, David. That must have been a year or two after I left the cult. So, for the first year after I left, this false teaching hurt me so much that I was stressed out and worn out.
I went back into the world right away. Of course, I was doing the silliest things as my flesh. I really did start looking for God at that point; I had read all four gospels that summer, just a few months before the Passover that you were preaching at.
I remember that as one of the most important times when the Lord kept his word and kept knocking on the door for me and my heart. That’s why I remember that moment. I also remember going up to you and Pastor Freddie afterward to ask him more questions about it because I knew it would be very important.
That’s right. So, yes, it was a very beautiful moment. I also thank the Lord.
[Ronji]
Yeah, and it’s really cool to see young men like you and Hannah work through these things with the help of the Lord and, I guess, use the Bible as our final authority. I see what you mean, Vito. You already said that we’ve talked about this subject before. As we speak, we are talking about Shinji Onji, and we are sure that it meets all the requirements of a cult.
If you want to know what this means in terms of love and warning, keep that in mind. This is dangerous. You would say that this is a dangerous group to be a part of or work with? Yes, definitely.
So that’s where we start. We can’t go over every little detail of history in a short podcast, but we do want to cover the most important points. So, what is a religious cult? That’s where we start today. I know you went through that journey and have done your own research since you left. What are some clear signs of a religious or Christian cult?
I just want to get it out there. You’ve already left, right? Yes, I did leave.
Okay, I just want to make sure.
[David]
It’s likely that my old lawyer is mad at me right now, but I’ve left.
[Ronji]
Yes, and that’s beautiful because it’s a real experience that was sparked by the Holy Spirit and God’s Holy Scriptures. Now tell me what a religious cult is. What is a cult of Christianity?
What do those signs mean?
[David]
Yeah, I had to do more research because, you know, no one joins a cult knowing it’s a cult, right? Some of the people who are actively recruiting don’t even know it’s a cult. They believe it is true.
It’s a long story, but the word “cult” comes from the Latin word “cultus.” And those roots, they originally meant to grow something. Then it moved on to education and training.
You already know that the English language starts to mean different things. It went from being grown to being trained to being taught to being adored. Then it changed over time to worship.
And this would be worshiping a person or thing without being religious, you understand? So, a Christian cult would be an example of a religion that is not followed by most people. That means it doesn’t believe the most important things about Christianity.
They would say things like that Christ is not God, the Trinity is not true, and salvation is not by faith alone.
[Ronji]
Yeah, and that’s a very important point: there are cults in the world, but we’re talking about groups that say they are Christian churches or organizations. Again, we think this is a very dangerous one, which is why we want to make this podcast and others like it. But it’s interesting that most religious or cult Christian groups often deny that Jesus is God or that salvation is by faith alone, right?
That’s interesting. We might even need to go back to some of the most important teachings of J-dubs, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the LDS Church. They also reject some of the most important traditional beliefs about who Christ is.
David] While saying they are Christians.
[Ronji]
Even though they say they are Christians. And we’re not talking about those things today. We’ve already done some things about Mormonism.
But what are some of the resources you’ve been looking at that have helped you figure out what a cult is? Also, how can we learn more about how dangerous cults are?
[David]
There are some things that helped me get out of Shincheonji. We’ll talk more about them later, but the Cultish Podcast from Apologia Studios is one of them. Great Light Ministries has been good on YouTube. However, there is one called Examining the SCJ, which is kind of a shortened form for Shincheonji and is found at scj.com.
I just learned about one in New Zealand as well. That’s a great list of New Zealand resources. This comes from Kiwis who are from New Zealand and have left Shincheonji. They are writing from a local point of view.
You know what’s going on in the country. That’s why I love their ministry. What do you call them?
Their name is whatismountzion.co.nz. And you can find them on Facebook too.
Okay, that’s cool. Which means we can also put that in the show notes so people can find it. And you know, I was thinking a little more about cults in a broader sense, but you know, those that say they are Christian.
On top of that, I looked at some KAM work. It’s just about getting resources. The name of KAM is Christian Apologetics Resource Ministry.
They also had lists of things that everyone in a cult does. It says that its new teachings and theology are the whole and only truth. Giving meets the asset requirement.
That’s good for you as an accountant, you know. So the asset requirement is met by giving. A lot of things are given, like land, tithes, and so on.
Another sign is that they are very closed off. A lot of control. I think you’re going to talk a lot about that.
For them, there is another holy book, set of teachings, or scriptures that are often just as important as the Bible. My favorite, though, is that one, and I think you’ll talk about it. One that really interested me, and maybe you can quickly touch on it, is a persecution complex. This means that when someone attacks them, they think, “Oh, look, we’re being persecuted for the faith.”
That must mean we are, that this is the truth. So, is that something you’ve seen in your own time and in your research? Would you like to use Shincheonnji or SCJ?
Okay, fine. So, yeah, is that something you’ve seen in Shincheonji when you were doing your own research on the persecution complex?
David: Oh, yes, for sure. I forgot to look into that, but now that I do, I think it would be something small, like someone making fun of you on the train or something. While I was at Shincheonji, they were still a secret for a couple of years, which is longer than anyone else.
That’s why they were still hidden. I think they opened up maybe last year or this year, but they’re still using sneaky and dishonest methods. But hearing all of those things you just talked about, bro, like every little thing and that feeling of being persecuted as well.
I haven’t seen any proof of something bad happening to Shincheonji people. There may be proof of something bad happening. While I was in New Zealand, we never had it happen to us. They would use the word, but we never had anything like that.
Looks like we’re being hurt.
[Ronji]
Thus, it follows.
[David]
Okay, so we must be telling the truth. They wouldn’t understand this.
Rosnji: Oh, sure. So let’s look into this a little more. And since Shincheonji is Korean, I’m going to ask you this. It’s the same as Tongan.
But really, what is this group? It’s been very clear that I won’t use the word “church.” That doesn’t look like a group of saints to me.
What is this Shincheonji group, though? What do they think?
[David]
That’s right, they are a very high-level, secretive group, but we’ll get into the specifics later. Shincheonji, also known as SCJ, has many names. This is common for cults, who change their names all the time to hide who they are. These letters are made up of the Korean words for “new heaven” and “new earth.”
Okay. That has to do with theology. A different name for it would be Zion Mission Center.
A full name for it would be Shincheonji, which means “Church of Jesus, the Temple of the Tabernacle of Testimony.” What was it? Yes, there are many.
There are many. So, they are a cult of the end of the world.
[Ronji]
It’s going to happen.
[David]
Yeah, kind of like the Moonies from way back when. I believe that’s all about this charismatic leader named Lee Man-hee. This guy is in his early 90s; I think he’s around 92.
That’s where he lives. He is also pretty much the only one who can understand the Bible. And just being a member is the only way to be saved.
You may not know Shincheonji, but you may be able to pick up on the cult’s trends, which are similar to those used by other cults to keep people in line. So you need to be a member of SCJ in order to be saved. The parables are like secret language that you need to understand, just like the Gnostics did in the past.
The biblical stories, but only he can figure out what they mean. Yes, that’s right. In that case, it’s a metaphor, but only in the way I understand it.
You use that, along with Lee Man-hee sealing you. In their theology, that just means knowing what he taught, and Revelation was written by John. He’s known as “New John.”
People call him the pastor who was promised. He also has the spirit of Jesus in him. That is really risky.
He is really saying that he is God. So, yeah, they have a different name in New Zealand. It’s called Pathways New Zealand, or sometimes Zion Mission Center. Also, they have a worldwide group called HWPL.
So this Lee Man-hee guy is in charge of it. In secret, they invite well-known people, politicians, and pastors, and these people will go and take pictures. He is the chairman. And they’re basically saying, “Look, he’s making the world peaceful.”
His job is like a blood drive or the Navy. That group is quite a political movement. There is a political movement going on, and when they do good things, they stand out.
[Ronji]
People call it PR, or public relations.
[David]
So when they do these things, they get a lot of attention and try to get pictures with famous people and politicians to show that they have the truth. He’s making things better, right? It’s crazy too.
[Ronji]
The things you’ve said kind of answer my next question, but I still want to ask it. What makes them dangerous? When someone says they have the spirit of Christ, that’s a huge red flag.
One hundred percent. Big red flag. What else about them is bad?
I thought we were talking about drug cartels, gangs, and other similar things when you talked about names and rebranding. Like when the mafia tries to hide their tracks. Like, why are these guys dangerous?
Like you touched on some of the things that aren’t what they seem to be. We’ll talk more about that later, but why are they dangerous?
[David]
I think there were two main things I saw. Now, one practical reason to join a cult is to stay under their control. People who join this cult will probably believe what these people say and end up being sucked in.
They are left alone. People are told over and over again to quit their jobs, their families, their studies, and other things. And it’s mostly because of this character and what he says.
I’d like to talk about some things he says about himself, if that’s okay.
[Ronji]
Yes, yes. Before that, I guess, how does he talk to people? Like, does he have a page on YouTube?
Does he have a podcast with Canaan? How does he talk to people? Is he just on Facebook or Twitter?
[David]
He does end up with different books, which he then shares. This cult is all over the world, bro. It’s in the US, UK, South Africa, and everywhere else.
There are Shincheonji Testimonies from people all over the world who say they were forced to join this cult. We drove by the Zion Mission Center even while we were in Samoa. The Zion Mission Center is theirs.
[Ronji]
That’s in Samoa.
[David] Yes.
[Ronji]
Did you know that the name of Canaan, which is the Zion Mission Center, is Shincheonji?
[Canaan]
I know that here in Manukau there is another cult called Zion Bible Study. I didn’t know there were two of them, though. The two of them are from South Korea.
Calling it Zion the same way.
[Ronji]
That’s right. It’s also interesting how often Zion shows up in these cult names. That’s a really strange way for this guy to talk.
So, what does he mean? What are some of the things I’d really like to hear them taught?
[David]
So, he can change everything because he says he is different things in the Bible and writes himself into the Bible. Anyway, if you’ve read 1984, you know that they’ll use the same word over and over again, but if you said apple last week and now it’s orange and everyone else is saying orange, you’ll think it’s orange, right? That’s why it’s practical.
In essence, though, he’s saying that this is the end of the world. Truth is being fulfilled in our lives right now. It’s been a thousand years now.
Okay. He’s telling us that he can lead us because he has the spirit of Jesus. He needs to seal us all.
We should all be in this church.
[Canaan]
Wow. Does this pastor say he is Jesus the second coming?
[David]
They don’t believe that Jesus will come back because he’s already here. He has the spirit of Jesus, but they won’t say that he is Jesus. Also, do you mind if I talk about the things he writes about himself?
Because it answers your question, bro. In Matthew 24, he says that he is the faithful and wise servant, among other things. In John 14, he calls himself the comforter or speaker for us.
He’s the living tree. He is going to sit on God’s throne. He also says that he is the messenger in Revelation 1.1 because they think that this is Revelation right now. From Revelation 2 to 3, he is the one who wins. Revelation 3.12 says that he is the pillar in God’s temple. There are two witnesses in Revelation 11. This is one of them. In Revelation 19, Jesus compares him to a white horse and says, “I have the spirit of Jesus in my body.” The list goes on.
And now we’ll talk about the danger. The danger is that if you believe this man is God, what wouldn’t you do for God? He says a lot of things that make sense because they match up with what he says. That’s how dangerous it is.
That shows how dangerous he is with the false ideas he spreads in this cult.
[Ronji]
As for him, you said he is the only one who can interpret the Bible. Does he do it himself, or does he have 12 disciples? How far is this going? Like in the language?
No, no, no. In terms of people around him, like I’m guessing there’s a whole structure of leadership that are around him or is this guy the mafia don that just, you know, this is how we’re doing every little bit around the world. Is it really that crazy?
[David]
Yes, I believe they told me that while I was there. They said that the LDS church is so good at what they do because of how they make their organization work. He said, “We have this guy who was in the cult.”
He was telling us that we also have that structure. He will be the center of everything, but he will have leaders in South Africa. The people who work for him will be in New Zealand.
The head is at the top, and then there are sub-levels below that. This goes all the way down to people like me who joined this cult without knowing it. It’s possible that the person you’re paired up with is already a member of the church. You think this guy might also be interested in going to this Bible study.
It then goes to this leader, who tells this leader, who then sets the vision for things like “we’ll change the class next week to this to keep them in.” In that case, it is a pyramid. It sounds like a way to make money.
[Ronji]
It’s kind of like ACM or something. But it really is, right? It seems like it’s coming back to him.
Don’t forget that one of the main signs of a cult, especially a Christian cult, is that they deny or have a different view of Christ. That’s why this guy is saying that he is, to be clever, the spirit of Christ. That’s what you said.
He is being very dishonest with his words. Are there any stories or news about them? You’ve talked about some of the ministries, so I know there are bits and pieces. But is there stuff like, if people are worried right now and are thinking, “Oh my gosh, that’s exactly what I’m involved in or someone else is involved in,” please keep listening.
For example, what news and media are out there about Shinjeonji?
[David]
There’s a lot of news. A lot has been written about them in the news in all the countries where they are planted. A lot of news stories have been written about these guys in the mainstream media, talking about everything they’ve done.
However, if you’re in the cult, they probably tell you not to use the internet or do your own research. This is something they do all the time, even if you’re not fully in the church yet.
[Ronji]
And that’s all part of being alone. So do they let you have social media pages and things?
[David]
They’ll have Facebook and Twitter. There will be things that are important to them, but if you want to think for yourself or have a question, they will tell you to go back to the teacher and I’ll help you. They would say something like, “The internet is poison,” but I forget what they would compare it to.
There will be some lies and some truths. And it makes sense up to a point, but there are resources. The truth is the truth, and it doesn’t matter if I look it up on the web or not.
It will never be green if this color is blue. It will always be blue, whether you or I think it’s green.
[Ronji]
That is an interesting way to keep people from going online to look at this. I guess—That sounds like a warning sign already. Even though I’m seeing red flags everywhere, that sounds like it should already be a sign.
They have control over how you work, what you study, and how you live your life. It’s that box, so I guess they’re trying. They just want to keep you in their world.
Okay. That’s yet another clear sign that this is a cult. What are some ways to tell if someone is in a Shincheonji-style cult?
What stood out? What are those?
[David]
The ways they tried to control me the most. Especially in a Christian cult, this goes against the most basic teachings of the Bible. They would tell us over and over that they didn’t believe it. I believe it would be more about testing what they say and going back.
They will say something like, “No, we believe in Jesus.” Like, “Yeah, he died for our sins,” but they don’t really believe it. I think that comes back to having the right view of scripture and knowing how to study it in context, figuring out when something was a metaphor and when it was literally written. You should also think about when the Bible describes something and when it tells you what to do.
Yeah, the control tactics and the isolation tactics are some signs that someone is in a cult. I think those are obvious red flags, but a lot of people just ignore them. I didn’t pay attention to it for about 18 months. I don’t blame them for that.
[Ronji]
So I want to get to this part because I think it’s a huge blessing that you’re willing to talk about this. We’ve been working on cult-related projects for a while now and it’s been really hard. But it wasn’t until that drive in Samoa on the way to Selangi that we thought, “What the hell is this?” So, bro, I thank the Lord that you had the courage to do this. So I guess the more personal question is how you got into the system.
Because after using them a few times, you start to understand how they work. So how did you get involved with this when you know it’s a scam?
[David]
To be honest, bro, I don’t think I was planted in a church. I didn’t grow up in a church. I wasn’t actively going back to my Bible and testing everything I see. This is what the Bible says to do.
This is useful advice. It means I wasn’t a very active Christian. I would say things.
[Ronji]
But you think you were saved before you went into Shinjeonji?
[David]
Now that I know what I know? Yes. I don’t believe I was saved.
I don’t think I knew what the gospel was. Okay. I could never put it into words.
I couldn’t say it the way I can now. I think what made me vulnerable was the fact that I didn’t know the Bible. Let’s say I say I know Jesus, but I don’t know what he taught or said. I only know what I hear in Sunday school, what my parents say, and what I see on TikTok or Facebook. Man, you could base your whole theology on that and be totally wrong and not be saved, bro.
That was me. And that really was me. So, I ended up in that church because I wasn’t planted.
I always go when someone invites me to a Bible study or church. You don’t even have to be my best friend. I mean, I only go because I’m interested.
I’m interested. That’s good. It’s okay to be interested.
If you’re a Christian, though, and you’re interested in these things, you should test the word, just like the Bereans did. Come back to the Bible. That’s why I always said, “Yes, man, yeah, I’ll come through and just kind of slip through the cracks.”
Yes.
[Ronji]
Also, was it a person? Was it a single person? Was it a group of people?
Was it a pretty girl? What were those things that drew you into that system?
[David] Sure. A friend of a friend, it was a friend of both of them. I would say “sup” to that person if I saw him. That’s the kind of mate you would say if you saw them and happened to walk by them.
Another guy from the Island. It was a Samoan college student. Okay.
From college. I said yes, because he said, “Bro, there’s this worship thing going on at this.” It looked like a Mount Eden Anglican church.
So close to the university. And right now, family, I feel like I’m not with my parents. I don’t live with my parents anymore.
My parents are living abroad and things like that. I think support system could be another one. Neighborhood.
So he asked me to come to this place of worship. When I went to church, it was just like any other service, bro. Like, I heard a story.
There was a prayer part. After that, we just kind of became friends. So, this, another Samoan man came up.
He spoke and told his story. It was all lies when we looked back. Everything he said.
Oh no. And most of the people who were there were already at church. I see, this was all a set-up.
It was set up. In the end, these guys were just putting other people’s sites on their site. Yes, I said.
Heard what was said. I thought, “Bro, that was a pretty good testimony.” He asked, “Do you want to study the Bible?”
I said, “Sure, why not?” After that, things got better.
[Speaker 4]
After that, people went fishing.
[David]
I get it.
[Speaker 4]
Oh no.
[David]
I get it, bro. Do you want me to keep going?
[Ronji]
Yes, yes, yes. That whole process. Because I believe that is true.
Like, these things are really happening.
[David]
Things happen.
[Ronji]
Also, I want you to keep talking about that. But part of that Vita is, I remember a mom who was upset coming up to us last year while we were preaching on the street in the markets. You were there too. She came right away, crying, and said, “I think my daughter is in a cult.”
She was also in college at the time. And everything she talked about is what we’re going to talk about tonight. That means this is real, right?
So, yeah, what was going on with that set-up? It sounds like those pranks, you know, the whole system for pulling pranks. You’re getting punched, you know?
Okay, so it’s a set-up. These men are giving testimony. They want you to come to Bible study.
What else is going on?
[David]
After that, I began going to this Bible study with this. I had also heard of this cult before. So they’re putting on a show the whole time.
You know about it, right? I’ve read things about SCJ before.
[Ronji]
Is that right? Yes, yes.
[David]
I’ve read articles about SCJ, but to be honest, I thought it was another Islander. And it seems like you’ll be drawn to Islanders when you see them in these places. But if you’re a Christian, that shouldn’t stop you from doing these things.
But the main reason we get together is to talk about God’s word, not the fact that you’re from the Island. So, I went to a few Bible studies after that, and everything was fine. I thought, “Oh yeah, this is fine.”
By chance, another Islander guy showed up, and he was my friend. He spent the whole time in the church. This is what we know now.
But at the time, it was just another guy asking, “Do you mind if this other guy comes?” He also wants to know more about God. He was fake.
He was fake. And he came. They’re supposed to be best friends with you, or at least friends with you. Many other people also had that happen to them.
But I’m not looking for a partner because I’m away from my family. I did this because I’m not at a church, that’s why. I’m not sure how to read the Bible.
These guys say they can help me, right? My only goal is to find God at all times. That being said, I don’t mind this guy being there.
So everything was fine. Then they said, “And they drip feed you.” Like I said, this is everything I told you about Shincheonji. This guy is the promised pastor and says he’s Jesus and God in the flesh.
That doesn’t come up until the very end, after you’re already hooked. It’s not dumped all at once. So I’m telling you now, even though it sounds silly, everything I did now is a mistake.
But first, they plant all of these lies to get you to the point where you think, “Really? That sounds like the truth.” So one of the things they do is say, “Look, lying is good.” Some people say that lying for God is a good thing.
It sounds like a warning sign. At that time, it raised a red flag for me. But they use 22:6.
Yes. They told him, “Look, Abraham, Abraham got up in the morning.” His wife didn’t know.
He didn’t really sell Sarah. It was him and two servants who went. What did he tell his servants he was going to do?
He told them to wait here and said, “No.” We’re going to pray to the Lord. I’ll be back with Isaac.
He lied there. Finally, even Isaac asked where the sacrifice was. And Abraham says, “You know, the Lord will give himself a sacrifice, a lamb.”
And at all of these points, the guy says, “See? Like, lying is good.” They call it wisdom. That’s smart.
Oh, man. That was already a red flag, you know. Also, you already know it’s funny, bro.
It’s funny. It’s okay with me. I don’t mind because I’m thinking, “Why did I fall through all these things?”
But after hearing that, I went back to one of my good boys who is a Christian. To which I replied, “What do you think about this?” I mean, this is pretty cool.
If you think about it, it makes sense, but it doesn’t feel right. He told me, “Brother, I think that’s the devil.” He told me the truth.
That looks like Satan to me. Devil always told lies. I believe that is Satan.
I called the guy. I sent the guy a text. I told him, “Bro, I’m not coming back.”
How far along was this part of that trip? It’s only been a month. After a month.
That’s why I’m not at church. I’m going to these by myself.
[Ronji]
You’re still looking for something. Still looking for.
David is still looking. Not put down in a church. Not brought up in their church.
Then I thought, “Oh yeah, that’s right.” I told him I would no longer be coming to this Bible study. I feel like it’s not real.
He said, “Wait, let me study the Bible one more time.” You can leave if it’s not true. As a yes man, I said, “Okay, fine.”
I’ll come, sure. Went, and he talked for two hours about the spiritual war we’re in. He also said that if we’re in a spiritual war, they wouldn’t say anything to the enemy about where they are or anything.
You also don’t know the spirit behind your mom or your dad. So it makes sense that you’ll use wisdom. In that case, I thought, “That makes sense.”
Sorry, shucks. You know what I mean? From then on, kept going with the one-on-one studies.
After about two or three months, they said, “Hey, bro, we have a class now.” Would you like to join the class? So I joined the class of about 22 other people.
It was the same. Everyone came with a friend. Half of the class was already new to the church.
The other half were people who were looking. Look for quote-unquotes. Okay.
After that, it took about five or six months. And this is three two- to three-hour classes a week. That’s 10 hours of my week.
[…] Oh, they’re working hard on it, then.
[David]
Yes, I’m working on it. Everyone is still living their lives, though. I have to work.
I have a part-time job. Also, I’m still studying for things like my bachelor’s degrees. So, yeah.
They haven’t told you this whole time that it’s this guy. Like, we’re really Shincheonji or something. Paragraphs are what we’re learning about all this time.
And everything is new. I think, “That makes sense.” In a logical sense, it makes sense.
I kept going until I was finally planted in the church. What steps were taken to plant?
[Ronji]
Did you get connected like a group? What the heck happened? Do they mean that? If so, what happened during that process?
Since you already talked about membership. Yes. How did that process of becoming a member actually work?
[David]
So officially, just before you become a member, they tell you where they’ve been getting these things from the whole time. It’s true. So they showed the video.
I remember. It gave me chills at the time. They played this video of an old Korean man talking to a huge crowd.
Having a conversation with a lot of people. As if to say, “See? We got all the truth that you’ve been learning for the last nine months or a year.” We’ve all been getting it from this guy.
That’s when I’m already kind of hooked. It makes sense because I haven’t been able to search the web or do anything else. They can’t, because I could have done it.
But if they’re telling the truth, “Oh, but, you know, if there’s poison on the internet, like, why would you?” then the Bible says not to.
[Ronji]
It also includes 10 to 15 hours of studying the Bible. All of a sudden, it starts to bomb.
[David]
And something with the body is going on. Yes. You also have teachers who want to hang out with you.
That’s likely what that word for “love bombing” means.
[Canaan]
How many hours do you think you spend with each week? It was probably 10 at that point, with the body catch ups and everything.
[David] Sure. All at once. 15 to 20 hours a week.
15 to 20 hours a week.
[Canaan]
It’s like having a part-time job.
[Ronji]
Real, bro. Can I? I really want to, this is really interesting to me. It sounds like I’m hearing this again.
I’ll say it again: praise the Lord that you want to talk about this. Did you ever think you’d end up with this group? I’ve known you for a while now.
There’s no doubting that you are very smart. You’re very smart, even though you don’t have the degrees that make us smart. Did you ever think, “Man, this group is going to beat me”?
[David]
Ronji, never in a million years. Because I was proud of myself, I really did think that only stupid people go to court. Like, only stupid, clueless people would do that.
Like I was going to college and getting my two degrees at the same time. Also, it does not make you smart. But I knew about Shin Chongji because I had read about him before.
Also that year, two courts got in touch with me. And I was able to figure out that these two are cults: the International Church of Christ (ICOC) and the Mother God. That’s a different podcast.
[Speaker 4]
Yes, I will do that podcast.
[David]
Yes, yes, yes. I’ll add a link. Canaan is going to talk to that person.
Yes. I never thought I’d be in a cult. Also, you should know that people who join cults didn’t know they were doing it.
[Canaan]
That’s right.
[David]
It was always something that these cults were interested in, like love bombing or community. And to be honest, it was chasing the word for me. Not even, and that’s because I’m a lazy man.
It’s clear I didn’t know I could just read my Bible. That’s possible. God, you know.
[Speaker 4]
Yes.
[Ronji]
But it sounds like there was some pride in that. Yes, yes. For you, because it’s almost very gnostic.
Kind of like, this man in Korea is the only one who can give you this kind of knowledge. Then I thought, “Man, look, I got it.” Hey, this book makes me feel like I know it a little better than everyone else because it makes me feel better about myself.
Is that something that was taken into account? I mean, I guess there are different hooks for different people. It might be a feeling thing. It could be the neighborhood.
It could be mental stuff like just talking to people. Was that part of your journey, getting caught up in the gnostic and proud parts of it?
[David]
Yes, I believe that. Before I saw the cross and really understood who God is and how humble He is, I think I was so proud that I never thought I would be caught up in these things. And I think that was a crutch for me.
I really didn’t think I’d ever get caught up in those things. I thought, “I’m too smart for this.” But man, God’s word is what faith is all about.
What He did for us. It’s not about how smart you are. How many people with PhDs in theology or something else might not believe in God at all or not really know Him?
That was a big part for me, for sure.
[Ronji]
How else did the body system and, I guess, surround keep you? Well, maybe not keep you, because you weren’t really locked up, but I think you were emotionally and spiritually. Been brainwashed, bro. It is, it’s a fake news.
It’s teaching them. How did they do this any other way? When you finally joined, did you work more than 20 hours a week?
So, was it? Yes, it really was. Oh, is that it?
Oh, is that it?
Right, [David].
[Ronji]
It went to a new level.
[David]
Yes. Yes. Because, to keep things as simple as possible, their doctrine says it all works.
You know, we all deserve it. We all deserve it. These guys are so busy recruiting people because of this. I wouldn’t even say they’re zealous.
It took a while to register, and when it did, I said, “I don’t know, I think I sent my ID.” But I think I sent my ID, a picture of my ID, my name, and everything else. I need to get in touch with them. They said something like, “Oh, we’ll write it in the book of life.”
Thus, there is a physical. Real, bro. It’s likely that this is because of my own pride and the fact that I want to be different.
Okay, I think I got lost there.
[Ronji]
But that whole process is what keeps you in. Yes.
[David]
They were all around you, right? Yes. That’s 15 to 20 hours when I first started going to Bible studies.
As soon as you get into the church, you have to go twice a week for three hours of church, go to classes, and be sealed. You have tests coming up. You have tests to take.
So, yeah, and they’ll have this on their website since they’re open. Now they’re on their own website, where I think there are ads for testing. They say things like, “We have a 97% pass rate,” but that’s just part of the. You had to prove yourself, and you did. You earned your way to heaven.
For example, do you remember everything the pastor promised us? Do you know all of this? So you’re testing what he has taught and what his history is.
Okay. Yes. So that’s what you’d be taught.
It would take a while. Everyone would go to church to study. Because it was taking up so much of my time, I probably left in part because of that.
But the most important thing was to actively, um, earn your place in the court by learning his doctrines and actively recruiting people to join.
Recruiting people or, I guess, evangelizing them was a job that would help them get to heaven or even a higher level of faith. Yes.
[David]
At the end of the day, that made them more like, yeah.
[Ronji]
Oh no. That’s crazy. Who did your families look like?
What did your friends and family think during this time? I know it’s a one-of-a-kind situation because you’ve been living away from your parents for years. It’s been a while.
Yes.
[David] Since I’ve been in this country.
[Ronji]
Parents have been to other places. Of course, you have close friends from the best school in the world, which is why you brought it up. Do not sing the school song.
What did they think, though? What, were they scared? Were they making fun of you?
How did that whole thing work?
[David]
To be honest, bro. My family and friends didn’t know about Shin Chong Ji the whole time because they were so secretive at the time. I don’t know if they’re still secretive or if they’re on websites or something. You didn’t tell them you were, did you?
Part of being wise is not telling them where you’re going because you don’t know the spirit behind them. It could be Satan in the spirit world. They didn’t know when I was because I had a part-time job and was going to college full-time at the time.
So whenever I got off work, I’d say I was going to see my family. Also, I have an uncle who lives in Auckland. He’s kind of like my dad here in New Zealand.
So whenever I had to leave my uncle or his kids, I would say, “I’m going back to work or school.” That’s why it was so simple for me to hide it until I told them.
[Ronji]
What about your boys? Did they notice anything, you know? They didn’t notice anything, though.
[David]
I’m calling them out, just like I do with my boys. Write them down. The people I was with were very independent. Like best friends, it’s one of those classics.
It will be the same when I see you in three months, so I don’t need to see you. But that probably has something to do with how important it is to be in fellowship with the body of Christ now.
[Ronji]
What were the other people in the cult like when you were around them? Did they not blink? Were they smarter? What were they like as people? I guess that’s especially true with the buddies, because I think they really believe that stuff. That being said, what was that place like?
What did they seem like, or were they all lying?
[David]
Oh my gosh. That’s a big one. Really, though, there are normal people.
And when I say that, you don’t meet the other members until you get to church. So the only people I know are in my class, and they say things like, “Oh, you know….heaven on earth.” We can go to church now, but you need to finish these things first.
Once we got inside, I saw people at university that you, Islanders, like, not my friends, but friends of friends, you know, we’re so connected. New Zealand has a lot of links. That means it was normal people.
These are college students. So even now, these are people that I see at work, not at my specific job, but in the office. They’re spread out, then.
There are teachers of all ages. They definitely go after people in their 20s to 30s, but everyone in North East Kingdom was that age. I feel like you just missed the mark.
31, 31, 20 years. I didn’t make praise the Lord. Thanks be to God, bro.
People like you, though, would never think. So, you know, we’d kind of know each other. I think they would add people to Facebook and everything to make it more of a community. Even the teachers would be added.
You’re still going to classes and having a leader over you while you’re going. There is a group and it is very structured, but some of the names they gave us while they were teaching us in class before we went in weren’t really their names. So there were still lies.
Even back then, I thought, “Frick, this guy is saying his name is Scott,” but I found out that it’s actually Jean. Like, you know, it was just that there are parts of still lying in while we’re in church.
[Ronji]
That whole culture is pretty bad for you. Then they said, “That’s cool. It looks good from the outside.” It looks great.
Hey, it looks good. I guess, especially if they’re getting good press, especially if there are young professionals, people around that age, or college students, but it sounds really bad. What’s going on between people within people.
[David] Sure. I wasn’t smart enough to know that at the time, but it was, it was really bad for me. It was hard to believe that some of those people had mental health issues. These are just regular people.
There are a lot of different problems, but some people had mental health issues, and the answer was, “Oh, you need to be more sealed.” It will be better if you read more of the Bible. Like, why is this person?
And I had heard of people actually killing themselves because of these things. And that’s the truth about being pushed. If you believe this person is God, go back to the case. You will do everything you can to, you know, keep us up.
To make God happy, right? Going to church would keep us up until the wee hours of the morning. They want us to keep up.
So not getting enough sleep. Yes. Not getting enough sleep and being alone.
When you kept pushing, I noticed something that made me think they wanted me to flat with them. That was the first red flag. Even though I was stuck in one place at the time, I knew at that moment that it was the Holy Spirit. This wasn’t me, I think.
I knew I shouldn’t flat because I wasn’t really into it. I thought to myself, “Oh, that makes sense.” But, as he said before and again, they are bringing heaven to earth, but there will still be war, sickness, and death in the end.
So, when they asked me to flat with them, I knew that if I did, I would be all in. You know, even my best friends and I had good friends outside of church at the time. These were the Christians I lived with. And with this push to actively recruit these people, I knew that if I was going to do it, I had to be sure it was true.
I thank God that the Holy Spirit kept me from doing that. I never. That means you weren’t hiring at that time, but you were getting there.
In the end, I could tell the push was just to do more things for this teaching for this. Yes.
[Ronji]
I’m getting mad just by hearing this whole thing. Because of your journey, I praise the Lord. I want to get this, then, because it’s the most important part.
How did you go? Like, how did you get out of some pretty clear red flags? Canaan and I are probably thinking right now, “Oh, we would never do that.”
I have my doubts about Canaan, but when you’re in it, the love bombing, all the other stuff going on, the buddy system, the man—it’s just like everything is falling into place. Things are going to go well for this kind of stuff. By God’s help, you left.
How did you go? Why did you go?
[David]
Now that I look back, bro, I praise the Lord for being faithful to me on this journey. He, there was a COVID. COVID took place.
I believe it was the last lockdown. About a week or two gone by since we last touched each other. No matter what level it was, I think we were in level four or three.
Shinshonji was still putting together this cult, so the church was still going strong. We were doing Zoom at that time. Even if you watched this guy’s sermon or someone talk about Lee Man Hee’s teachings for three or four hours, it would still be long.
I did these things during the COVID times, when we were very busy. I felt like it was taking over my whole life. COVID was helpful because it gave me a chance to take a break and think about my own things.
So I reached a point where I thought, “Man, I don’t believe in God at all.” I asked myself, “If this were really true, wouldn’t my love for him grow?” I mean, shouldn’t the Holy Spirit be at work in me?
I felt like I didn’t know everything and couldn’t explain any of these things. At my core, it was just, “Man, is this God? Is this what God really meant?”
[Ronji]
Each step of the process sounded very mechanical. It was just basic information that didn’t have any real meaning behind it. Yes, that’s it, bro.
[…] David: It sounds like they want us to preach this truth, but it doesn’t have any love in it. I would show up as someone else to get these things. I never actually recruited people, thank God, but I saw how they did it. They would make friends.
They would reach out to people who were alone or weak. In that time, around the COVID era, they would go on different sites, not dating sites but sites to meet people and make friends. I’ve seen people go on dating sites to actually recruit, but those were not the main ones. Okay.
I can’t remember which ones they were, but they were mostly sites to meet people. So, they would have these fake hangouts. And they would bring in all these people in COVID who are looking for friends at that time.
And you know what? They’re only making friends to get information from them that they can send to the teacher to figure out the best way to hook up this guy or that girl. For me, all of these things were just too much. I got to the point, and I believe I praise the Lord.
At some point, I thought, “Okay, let me just look it up on the internet.” It all goes back to that. I thought this whole time that this was God, but man, I didn’t believe in God at that time. I said, “Let me look.”
And the first thing I noticed was that it was cold, among other things. But it went into the things I was thinking at the time, and no one else called it out. I would think it, I wouldn’t raise it. You would ask your teacher a lot of questions, but the Bible always seemed to have an answer. You’ll take it if you don’t know the Bible like I did.
What a difference! I looked it up and saw the difference. It was two years ago that he said this would make this happen, but now he said this, and everything was changing. To keep things simple, I just cut it off from there.
Like, and I believe COVID helped with that. Like I could just because you weren’t there, they weren’t there, and they couldn’t put pressure on me by being around me. And especially, yes, it was that I just cut it off because I knew that the first time I tried to leave, he would say, “Oh, wait, excuse me, can you come back?”
So I just got rid of all my apps this time. I didn’t touch anything. I didn’t make any friends, even though everyone else did. I knew it was all a lie.
I was really only trying to find the word. Friends are nice, but I’m here to follow Jesus. As you may know, I’m after God.
That’s why I ended it. That same night, I called my sister in the US, but no one knew. I called her.
It must have been 3am there. I told her everything. I told her everything.
She was shocked, just like you would be. If my little brother came up to me, I would freak out too. That’s why I just went back into the world. As I thought, “Man, God, I was just… yeah, he could have hit me down, bro,” I gave in to my flesh.
[Ronji]
So, were you mad about everything? Were you mad at God or at yourself? I was mad at God. Yes, yes.
Because you were involved in something you knew was not important.
[David]
I had been after you the whole time. That’s not God’s fault, though. That was all I had to say.
I had the word the whole time. I could have checked it myself.
[Ronji]
That being said, did you think about coming back when you left? Did they try to get you back in? Did you not see them?
What the heck was that? How did that go? Or was it just a cut?
[David] I had no trouble with it. I thank the Lord for. I knew these mutuals, like the people at uni, so I still saw them at uni, even in the last few years.
Still, I think they knew they should stay away from me. Not because I want to attack them, but there’s more to it than that. Since you were outside now.
[Ronji]
I was now outside. And chose.
[David] Hey, buddy. They also have special words for people who leave, like a dog that comes back to its vomit or something like that. In that case, I guess you could say I was excommunicado or something.
[Ronji]
Thanks, John Wick.
[David]
No matter what they say, bro. I really didn’t care, though, because none of these guys were my friends. It felt like I was always after the Lord.
I also thank the Lord. I never went out of my way to look for these people. But I believe it’s God’s grace.
For example, I’ve met people in the last year who were in the church at that time. And these are Islanders, dude. I just meet them by chance.
I also went to the funeral of a friend or family member. And there was a guy there who was one of my bosses. Samoan kid, a young one.
He could have been the son of a five-foot owl, like these are. So he just told me that whenever I saw them at college, I would say something and then walk away because I would get mad. But this guy walked up to me and said, “Bro, you know, I left that.”
Also, when you talked about those hooks, I didn’t have those hooks myself, bro. However, this guy told me, “Oh, I’m thinking about going back.” In fact, he went back to his Ewha Kasa church and thought, “Wow, I really want to go back.”
So, right away, I told him what I had learned and sent him something useful. It’s been hard for me to catch up.
[…] At that time, you were in the Lord and not in the world.
[David] Sure.
[Ronji]
That’s only this year. Not long ago. When did you turn to the Lord?
Yesterday. Rita, this is really interesting. All of the things we’ve talked about would help us if we knew someone who was in a cult or thought they might be in one. There are also a lot of good resources and ministries online.
How can we help them get out? As if we were going to leave. You left, cold-cut, which was probably hard.
This person left. His mind is now on going back in. Like, what else can we do to help besides pray? What else can we do to really try to get someone out of this mess?
[David]
I believe these are loved ones, man. Yes, it is very hard. I believe you should judge it.
How you talk to them would depend on what stage they’re in. In the early stages, like when you’re studying the Bible, you should be as pushy as you can. For example, watch this YouTube video to see what I mean. Send them all of these things, like “sit with me.”
Watch this. Do you believe that’s what you’ve learned? I believe that the best time is in the beginning.
That time is second best. The best time is when these things don’t happen at all. Being aware of God’s word.
We should know who Jesus Christ is and what kind of person he is if you follow him. That’s what the early stages would be like. I’d say that after the first few stages, you really had to go at it without prayer.
I believe you should be very quiet about it since the main goal is to get them to see it. And we know that’s hard to do because we’ve shared the gospel with people in places like markets. There’s also a process.
[Ronji]
I agree with what you said—thank God you weren’t there for that longer time, even though a lot happened. Yes. But you’re talking about people who are like cults and families that go back generations, you know?
I agree that there is a, that’s fine. I do want to go back to the point that we teach from the Bible: the more you know about what is true, the more you know about what is false. This verse from John 17:17 has been shared many times. It says that the Messiah says, “Holy is your word to us.”
Your word is true. This is the objective measure of what is true. That is, in fact, very interesting.
Yes.
[Canaan] Sure. If you think SEJ is a cult, what do you think their main goal is? In other words, do they really believe this?
Or is it more like, is it for money or to have an effect on politics? Like, when you talked to the people in the cult who were your bosses, did you think they really believed what they were teaching?
[David]
Yes, that is a great question. I think it has to do with the different hooks that got these people involved in the first place. For example, if it was community, they could say, “Oh, he said that, he lied this time.”
On the other hand, these are my maids, so they’re kind of like family. So I think it comes back to the different hooks. For example, some people believe it, and I’d say that most of the people who teach it do too. But that’s probably what you teach this fake truth and these lies when you become a teacher.
You agree with them. You’re years into it now, so you already believe it. So it’s likely that they really believe it.
Even though many people have said they left after how many years? That’s God’s grace. Thank God.
That’s God. Yes, those are different hooks, bro. I believe they do.
Yes, there is no money. It’s not like they ever asked me for money. I mean, I never did anything weird.
It’s more like giving my time to the cause of Lee Man Hee’s power, probably in the end. Take a look at all those different cults. You asked me about the cult I was in, but you can think of a lot more where the charismatic leader only wanted power, fame, money, sex, and other things.
It is, in the end, to his power, but they don’t know that. They believe that he is, you know, God’s representative.
[Ronji]
That’s a very important point to me. Even though we’re talking about Shincheonji, all of these things are true for other Christian groups as well. But to go back to the system and the lies, I read in Galatians that if a gospel comes along that isn’t the true gospel from the Bible, then that gospel and that person are cursed, right?
It is abomination. Because of this, I believe we should use these lessons. Hey Vita, I want to get to the end of this part because I have a lot of questions about it.
And I’m just amazed by it. We’re not here to praise the cult, though, which I’m glad about. We thank God that you left the cult and for what he does with people who leave groups like these all over the world.
Then why would you talk about this stuff on this podcast? And I do want to acknowledge it, bro, because that’s like, revealing. You’ve been Cleo bachelor of the year. As far as I know, you work in the business world and spend time with your family and friends.
And if people find this, you’ve put your name out there for truth and Christ, not Shincheonji. That being said, why would you talk about this stuff on this podcast?
[David]
Yes, it all comes from love, and I could never love someone if it wasn’t based on God. Only true love is based on God. We can’t know love if we don’t know God. You could see a lot of marriages falling apart these days.
I also think that the Bible makes it very clear that if you guys aren’t working together and following the same path, which is based on Christ, then you see first Corinthians 11. A wife’s husband is her boss. It doesn’t end there.
Some people believe that’s where it ends. No, it doesn’t end there. The son is the head of the father, and the son obeys the father. I’ve done all of these things out of love, so it’s fair.
Yes. Cult is one of the things that has taken my attention away and caused me to make mistakes. But the main reason I came on this blog was to help people understand that the real point of life is to know God and be pushed to experience God for themselves.
And if something ever says it’s God or something, we could easily tell the difference between lies and the truth, as you said. In other words, it’s all done out of love and to warn. I don’t want these things to happen to people.
[Ronji]
I agree with Vita; we’re going to do this. We want to do these things, not because we care about shares, likes, or content. We don’t want to scare people away from the truth of the gospel.
Also, Vita is really brave to come talk about this. Do you remember what your journey with God was like after you left? It seems like I’m getting mad when I talk about sociology more.
How has it been since you left? I know we dragged you to Samoa a few weeks ago, where you went on your first mission trip and other things. What’s it been like since then, though?
[David]
After a year of doing my own thing and finally reaching the end of myself, a friend pushed me to do it. But at that moment, I wasn’t sure if I should come or not. So, I see that all of these things are just for show.
Ecclesiastes is all about false gods. I was just after the wind. I did a good job, had a good career, and everything else.
The pretty girl, it never felt right. Now, Ronnie, one of my best friends from law school, let’s go. She told him, “Man, I think you don’t fear God enough.”
And that slap was just what I needed to say, “Okay, no, do I really decide? Do I really believe in Jesus or not?” I can’t just accept these good things about Him. So, yeah, moving on, and that’s a direct quote from Proverbs 1:7.
Being afraid of the Lord is the first step to becoming wise. You should know that fools hate knowledge and advice. It was then that I prayed very hard to the Lord.
I tried the first time, Lord, I tried it my own way. I tried all of these methods. Just put me in a good church.
Make sure I join a good Bible study and church group. And within weeks, bro. I’m not saying that God will grant all your wishes right away. That’s not what I mean.
But after a few weeks, I met Lisiua, a cousin who has been on the podcast before. She told me, “Man, I go to this church.” The fresh truth is that this is a good source.
Also, I think you or someone else talked about Isis Jesus and Exodus Jesus. After that, I began my whole journey back to the Lord. I gave my life to the Lord.
After a few months, it was planted at a waterhole church, as I already said. As well, I’ve been growing. That’s not me either.
I’ve tried all of these things. It was never me. God was always there.
God deserves all the praise. You should know that I tried my own things. I really think it’s a good thing that I was in that cult, bro.
Why? Because it made me feel bad about myself. I was so smart, you know.
I know God, so I’ll never do that. Yes, I do know God. I don’t need to read the Bible.
I know God. He broke that pride. And I really believe I needed that to break me, make me fully humble, and make me realize that what you say is true.
We could also check the truth. So I thank the Lord. Still went to the mission and did different things.
But praise be to the Lord. Thank the Lord.
[Ronji]
Wow, that journey sounds amazing. It would be a different kind of walk if we were still in Shinjeonji and you were still there. It looks like all of the Fresh Truth guys are here at the same time.
Rasji Canaan might get angry.
[Ronji]
But I’ve also changed. However, Vita, I see that you’re happy this morning. What do you think I should do?
And I pray that these things will reach people who are having trouble with things like this. Shinjeonji, Mother God, J-dubs, the LDS, and other things that don’t match up with what the Bible says. Tell the people in these groups what you think they should do.
[David] The people in these groups. When it comes down to it, truth is truth. Truth will always be truth, no matter how I feel about it or what other people say.
So if some groups tell you not to look into it yourself and to keep going back to them for answers, that’s fine. But don’t be afraid to question the faith. And I’m not saying take apart.
[Ronji]
Take a look. Take a look.
[David]
You should know that Jesus asked almost 300 questions during His ministry. He asked lots of questions all the time. And we can also ask things.
It doesn’t have to be to these members only either. Also, I would say, really test. If you don’t believe me, read the Bible. It’s time to get back to the truth if this group says they are Christians or proper Christians.
Now I’ll go back to 1 John 4, verses 1–3. It also says, “Beloved, don’t believe every spirit. Instead, test the spirits to see if they are from God, because there are many false prophets in the world.” This is how you know the spirit of God.
Any spirit that says Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God. And there is no spirit that is not of God that says Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. This is the antichrist’s spirit, which you heard was coming and is now here.
John talked about the same thing hundreds of years ago, more than a thousand years ago. Hi, family. There is nothing new under the sun, so it’s not a new thing. So I think it’s important to always come back to the truth and be able to question it.
It doesn’t matter what I think or what this person thinks if it’s true.
[Ronji]
I think you and I both want to stress that point that you brought up with John’s teaching right there. From the beginning of the church (Acts 2:2), this was going on in the early church. And especially the early church and Paul’s trips as a missionary.
You know, Jude talks about men who got in, and the idea of false teachers and teaching in the church comes up over and over again. So, let’s go back to Galatians, which I just read. It talks about these false teachers who came into these churches in Galatia. We don’t have to use modern technology all the time, thank God. There are good podcasts, websites, and ministries that we can rely on.
When we look at the Bible, however, we can find a great example of what a cult is and how to stay away from them. Then how to leave a cult if you are already in one. I believe it is very important that it is also found in the Bible.
That’s a great passage from John. Is there anything else you want to point us to in the Bible, Vita, that talks about recognizing or leaving a cult?
[David]
Oh, one more. If you have another one, please add it. One of them is 2 Corinthians 4:2. Paul is talking, and he says, “Instead, we have given up secret and shameful things, not lying or twisting God’s word to everyone’s conscience by telling the truth in a clear way.” Also, that probably has something to do with how these cults, including Shincheonji, got you to join.
So working behind the scenes, I think another…
[Ronji]
Hey, man, it’s just another lie.
[David]
That’s right, but they’re calling it truth. And Satan has always done things that way.
[Ronji]
I think we’re going to, this is, we’ve said this before at Fresh Truth. That’s why you need to test your beliefs against the Bible. The more you know about the Bible, the better you can tell what is true and what is false. But the passage—look, I know I’m repeating myself—Acts 17, 11—is very important.
But when the Jews of Thessalonica had, sorry, verse 11, I’m reading the wrong verse. These people were better than those in Thessalonica, and they were ready to hear the word. They also searched the Scriptures every day to see if those things were true. Because of this, I can’t get past the fact that the more we study the Bible, the more we know what isn’t true and how to find it.
What God’s word says is true, beautiful, and wonderful. But then we start to know all the things that aren’t true. Cana, do you have anything else you’d like to say before we end?
[Canaan]
Yes, that just came to mind. There must be a part in Matthew, right? Where? I’ll quickly look it up.
Okay, dude. Matthew 24:19 says that there will be false messiahs and prophets who come forward and do amazing things. So, as you said, the Bible already warns us that something like this will happen.
But then it says, “to trick, if possible, even the elect.” Today we’re not going to talk about Calvinism either. Your faith is now coming out.
But we’re talking about people and keeping them from joining cults that the Bible talks about. No matter what theology they follow, even the most devoted Christians can fall for cults and false teachings. This is also true for sociological or psychological cults. This is why your story, Vito, should serve as a warning to those who have left the faith.
You said that you went to church as a child and that’s how you were raised. You should be careful of people who think they know the Lord but don’t or who don’t know the Lord at all. If someone doesn’t know the truth and doesn’t keep their word, they can be sucked away from it or into lies.
Really, really proud of you, man, for what the Lord has brought you through and for being able to use this to share your story and encourage others while warning them about cults, cultish behavior, and cult theology.
[Ronji]
Yes, good job sharing, bro. That was very good. Vito, look, this is going to end.
Plus it’s been great. Thank the Lord for that. That’s one reason we made this podcast. We’d love to do more in this area, but you already know that we fight and talk with these guys a lot in the markets, right?
When you’re not having your fancy breakfast, you go to the markets. We’ve worked with Shinji Onji, but mostly with Mother God, who is also known as the Worldwide Mission Society, Church of God, Anhang Song, and other groups like that. There are many different groups out there, such as the LDS, the J-dubs, other groups, Hebrew Roots, Hebrew Israelites, and more. There are a lot of different beliefs, teachings, and doctrines out there.
So, you know, we wanted to invite someone. And people, we talk to people about it, and it’s a tough subject. Like Canaan said, I just want to praise the Lord for what He has done for you.
But this is real life. We’re talking about people leaving the truth and their eternal lives. So this isn’t meant to get you more likes or something to boost your profile.
It’s about the truth. This will always be true. So now we know how dangerous Shinji Onji and these other cults are in New Zealand, the Pacific, Samoa, and other places around the world.
We can see it; there are temples here, Bible studies here, and other things like that. Also, we don’t talk about our churches in Fresh Truth. That’s something we’ve never done.
We’re going to talk about God’s word. That’s our last word of authority. That is what is both certain and not enough.
It’s enough to just believe what God says. That’s all I have to say, Vita. Thank you. But I’m going to leave you with one last piece of advice or words you want to say about what you’ve shared and talked about.
Toko, we always let you have the last word.
[David]
So, brother, I think my advice would be to talk to anyone, but especially young people who are starting to notice the generation that will come after me. All of my cousins make me feel old, but I have five younger siblings. I can see that the world they’re coming into isn’t new.
But there are a lot of things that can take their attention away, like these cults that are trying to take them. Paul says this in Philippians 3:10, which makes me feel better. Yes, Philippians 3:10.
The text also says, “My goal is to know him and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of his sufferings, which are the same as his death.” This is from Paul, who I believe has been to jail at least once before. I think he was eventually killed for his faith.
And in Acts, I think it was Acts 8, Jesus himself said that Paul would suffer a lot for the name of Jesus. So, if he means for Paul to know him, I tell everyone to get to know Jesus Christ and what he’s done, the power of the resurrection, and the fact that we are all sinners. I can’t even sum it up better than John 3:16.
Because God loved the world so much, he gave his only son so that you could believe in him. He said that anyone who believes in him will not die but will live forever. That’s the only thing that gives me hope.
We need to know the Lord if you say you know or follow the Lord. Get to know the Lord and understand how powerful it is that he rose from the dead. Yes, we will know lies once we know the truth.
[Ronji]
So thank the Lord. Thank the Lord. So, Vita, on behalf of Fresh Truth, praise the Lord.
Thanks be to God. Thanks for seeing and listening. Family, please get in touch with us if something upset you, made you think, or made you worry.
As soon as this is posted or watched, please get in touch with us. We’d love to talk with you about the Bible, biblical churches, and good, solid Bible studies that will help you on your journey. Let God be the only one who gets the glory, though. Hi, ma’am.