In this podcast episode—a joint effort between Cultish and Great Light Studios—a former high-ranking Shincheonji leader, known as Mr. Shin (also called “Snake Shin”), shares his insider testimony about the cult’s inner workings, doctrinal shifts, and manipulative practices. Throughout the interview, Pastor Yang serves as the Korean interpreter for Mr. Shin, helping convey his revelations and experiences clearly to a broader audience. The conversation delves into topics such as the constant changes in Shincheonji’s scriptures, the manipulation of prophetic roles, and the personal and institutional abuses experienced by its members. This candid discussion aims to expose the dangers of the cult’s teachings and offers hope to those seeking to break free from its influence.
Inside the Shincheonji Testimony: A Detailed Look at a Former Leader’s Account
In this podcast episode—a special collaboration between Cultish and Great Light Studios—a former high-ranking leader of the controversial Shincheonji organization speaks out. The guest, known as Mr. Shin (also called “Snake Shin”), is now a Christian pastor. He worked for Shincheonji as the director of education in Korea for 20 years. His testimony explains many confusing and changing doctrines inside the group.
A United Effort to Reveal the Truth
The episode starts with introductions by several hosts including Jordan, Jeremiah, Steve, and Chris. They stress that the goal is to share important information about Shincheonji, a group known for its secretive and deceptive methods. The hosts believe that this information can help people understand the dangers of cult-like control. They mention that similar groups, such as the World Mission Society Church of God (sometimes called the Mother God Cult), have also been the subject of previous interviews.
Who Is Mr. Shin?
Mr. Shin is a former leader within Shincheonji. In the cult, he was known as “Snake Shin” because he was seen as a traitor. Today, he speaks as a Christian pastor and uses his past experience to warn others. During the interview, Pastor Yang serves as the Korean interpreter. He helps explain Mr. Shin’s ideas and testimony to an international audience.
His Background and Role
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Membership and Leadership:
Mr. Shin joined Shincheonji in 1986 and left in 2006. He worked as an education instructor and eventually became the head education director in Korea. In his role, he was very close to Mr. Lee Man-hee, the founder and central figure of Shincheonji. -
Close Association:
Mr. Shin was so close to Mr. Lee that he acted as the “eyes and ears” of the leader. He ate meals with him many times and followed all of his orders. This close relationship made his later decision to speak out even more significant.
Changing Doctrines and Doctrinal Confusion
One of the most important parts of the testimony is about how the teachings and written documents in Shincheonji changed over time.
Constant Changes in the Writings
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Books and Sermons:
The group published several books that explained their beliefs. However, these texts were not fixed. The names of people and the meanings of events (such as prophecies from the Bible) were often changed from one edition to another. This led to great confusion among members. -
Revelation and Prophecy:
In the context of the Book of Revelation, Mr. Shin explains that even the roles of key figures—such as the “beast from the sea” or the “betrayers”—were changed. For example, in one version, a senior pastor was identified as the beast; in a later version, the name was changed to another person. Mr. Shin argues that changing the details of prophecies means that the witness (or the person giving testimony) loses credibility.
The Doctrine of Immortality and Salvation
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Belief in Immortality:
A core belief in Shincheonji was that the founder, Mr. Lee Man-hee, was immortal. Many members were taught that only by following his teachings (sometimes explained as “eating his flesh and blood” in a spiritual way) could one be saved. Although Mr. Lee never clearly said he was immortal, the idea was passed on by the instructors. -
Changes Over Time:
Mr. Shin points out that over time the teaching about the 144,000 (a group of holy people mentioned in Revelation) also changed. Originally, only the names in a special “Book of Life” were considered for salvation. Later, the doctrine expanded to include a “great multitude in white” and promised that after a thousand years a new order would come into place. This meant that not only a fixed group of 144,000 but also many others would be saved, with the 144,000 eventually reigning as kings and the white multitudes forming the people of God’s kingdom.
Inside the Hierarchy of Shincheonji
The podcast also explains the strict ranking system within Shincheonji:
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Leadership Structure:
At the top is Mr. Lee Man-hee, who is seen as sitting on a throne like a divine being. Below him are the seven educators, the 12 tribal leaders, and the 24 elders. Mr. Shin held a very high position as the education director, ranking directly below Mr. Lee. This structure was meant to mirror visions from the Bible, such as the vision of the 24 elders in Revelation chapter 4. -
Changing Appointments:
Despite the clear hierarchy, Mr. Shin explains that many appointments within Shincheonji were not truly guided by divine inspiration. Instead, they were based on Mr. Lee’s personal choices. Leaders were often replaced simply because Mr. Lee changed his mind, not because of any divine decision.
Personal Testimony and the Path Back to Real Christianity
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Return to True Faith:
Mr. Shin shares that he was a Christian even before joining Shincheonji. He joined the group to understand God better but eventually discovered that the teachings were false. This realization led him to return to what he calls the “original Christian position.” Unlike many members who lost their faith completely, Mr. Shin now uses his experience to help others see the truth. -
The Cost of Leaving:
The podcast explains that leaving a cult like Shincheonji is very hard. Members may lose friends, family, and support when they decide to leave. Mr. Shin also faced personal attacks, including allegations of embezzlement. However, he points out that these charges were based on intimidation rather than legal evidence.
Final Thoughts: The Call to Awareness and Action
Throughout the interview, the speakers emphasize the need for clear and honest information. They point out that:
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The constant changes in Shincheonji’s doctrines, such as the altered names in their texts and the shifting interpretations of biblical prophecies, are signs of manipulation.
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The leadership structure and the personal choices of Mr. Lee Man-hee reveal a system that is more about control than about genuine divine revelation.
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Mr. Shin’s testimony is important because it provides first-hand evidence of these problems and shows how even high-ranking leaders can come to see the truth.
The episode ends with a call to those who are still involved with Shincheonji to look more closely at the teachings they have received. The hope is that by understanding these issues, more people will be able to break free from the cult’s influence and return to what the speakers call the “real Jesus” and true Christianity.
The video transcript has been paraphrased.
Former Shincheonji Senior Leader SPEAKS OUT! (With @TheCultishShow)
This episode is a collaboration with the Cultish Podcast. The goal of this collaboration is to spread important information. In this interview, you will meet a significant figure within the Shincheonji community.
We decided to join forces and release this episode on both platforms so that it can reach a wider audience. I believe the information shared here is crucial and will help many people break free from the influence of Shincheonji. If you’re new to the channel, I regularly conduct interviews with former members of both the World Mission Society Church of God (also known as the Mother God Cult) and Shincheonji. You’ll find links to some of these interviews in the video description below. If you enjoy this kind of content, please subscribe and enjoy the interview.
Hey everyone, this is Jeremiah, one of the co-hosts at Cultish. This is a crossover episode. Not too long ago, we released a series on Shincheonji that was very eye-opening, and many of you gave us great feedback.
I’m now joined by our two previous guests, Steve and Chris. It’s great to have you both back.
It’s great to see you, guys.
Thank you for this opportunity. We are very excited—and we’re also joined by Jordan. Remind me, what’s the name of your YouTube channel again? Great Light Studios.
Great Light Studios produces a lot of excellent content. This collaboration is especially important because Shincheonji is a dangerous cult infiltrating churches across denominations—Baptist, Pentecostal, Lutheran, and more—using deceptive methods.
This interview is particularly exciting. Could you tell us a little about it and explain why getting the word out is so important?
We have been speaking out against Shincheonji on both of your channels, and it’s exciting because we recently launched a trailer as a preview for this episode. So before we continue, let’s play the trailer.
In the trailer, our guest’s face was blurred out. Here’s the trailer as it originally appeared:
“Well, I haven’t seen you for a while. I have a very special surprise for you all today. Do you recognize this guy?”
That was the trailer featuring our special guest. Now, we can unblur the trailer for the first time and reveal who we are interviewing in this episode.
It’s your friend today. I haven’t seen you for a while, so I have a very special surprise for everyone. Do you recognize this guy?
[Steve] (3:25 – 3:59)
Okay, so if anybody there knows much about Shincheonji, the person in question is the infamous Mr. Shin. Among the members of Shincheonji, he is referred to as “Snake Shin.” Mr. Shin is now a Christian pastor—part of what is known as Babylon, supposedly within Shincheonji.
For years, he was the number-two person in the Shincheonji cult, serving as the director of education. And Chris, you are a former member of Shincheonji. You used to hear about this “Snake Shin” guy while you were still in Shincheonji.
[Chris] (4:00 – 4:14)
Oh, absolutely. As you already mentioned, he is referred to as Snake Shin. He is considered the ultimate betrayer—one of them, at that—and he is an example of someone who was filled with seven evil spirits, now actively speaking out against Shincheonji.
[Steve] (4:16 – 5:00)
So, he’s basically public enemy number one. We were very fortunate to interview Mr. Shin for an extended period, asking him many hard-hitting questions about the history, origins, and changes within Shincheonji during his visits to North America. This opportunity was nothing short of a divine breakthrough—a real first.
What’s really exciting is that we’re able to present a wealth of hard, first-hand information in English from someone who was an insider at a high level. He even knew Mr. Lee Man Hee, the chairman of Shincheonji, very well. We can now share this evidence with your friends, family, and anyone involved with Shincheonji.
[Jeremiah] (5:01 – 5:10)
In comparison, this is equivalent to John Travolta defecting from Scientology and then doing a tell-all. That’s the level of revelation we’re talking about.
[Steve] (5:10)
Maybe even higher.
[Steve] (5:11 – 5:43)
Perhaps akin to a first counselor in the Mormon church—a number-two figure. In fact, Mr. Shin is even mentioned in the Book of Revelation according to Shincheonji. This is a very big deal, and we’re thrilled to be able to share it.
He is a gracious man. Although he’s called “Snake” and is seen as the ultimate betrayer, he is a wonderful Christian who is sharing his story. His concern for the souls of Shincheonji members is evident, and it’s a great blessing to see him embrace the truth and develop a relationship with the real Jesus Christ.
[Jeremiah] (5:44 – 5:52)
Awesome. Before we jump into the episode, Jordan, what are your thoughts on the importance of this interview?
[Jordan] (5:53 – 8:28)
I believe the more I speak with former members on my channel and hear their stories, the clearer it becomes that the specific doctrinal propositions taught by these groups are problematic. It’s not just about having every doctrinal “I dotted and T crossed” perfectly; it’s about how those doctrines impact people. These beliefs are used to control, manipulate, and, frankly, abuse members—draining their time, devotion, and money from abandoned families and careers.
What really concerns me is not merely that they believe in false doctrines, but what those doctrines do in terms of human behavior and control. Reflecting on Jesus’ teachings, he wasn’t as troubled by the Pharisees’ beliefs as he was by how those beliefs harmed others. In the case of Shincheonji, this harmful mindset is particularly alarming.
For me, this interview is crucial because it provides information that could help those on the verge of joining groups like Shincheonji—or those already deeply involved—realize something is not quite right. Coming from someone who held a high position within Shincheonji, this testimony is bound to have a positive impact on many lives.
[Chris] (8:28 – 8:49)
Well, one more thing I wanted to add—sorry for interrupting. This gentleman was part of the group since the 1980s and has witnessed and heard many things.
This underscores the importance of our efforts. With many failed prophecies and updated doctrines, it is extremely challenging for a non-Korean speaker to access this information. Therefore, it is vital that we get the word out.
[Steve] (8:50 – 9:41)
Right. I appreciate what you just said, Jordan, because Jeremiah often repeats on his show that theology matters—and that poor theology can hurt people. Today, we stand united despite coming from different backgrounds and perspectives within the Christian church; we all agree that Shincheonji is a dangerous group.
We also have Mr. Yang with us—a pastor who will be translating for Mr. Shin during this interview. Mr. Yang leads a Korean countercult ministry that addresses groups such as the World Mission Society, Church of God, JMS, and Shincheonji through the Bible Vaccine Center, a great ministry for our Korean brothers. With that, let’s introduce Mr. Shin and Mr. Yang for what promises to be a powerful interview. Thank you for watching.
[Jeremiah] (9:41 – 10:10)
I’m really excited for this interview, too. I want to add one last thing: although we come from different backgrounds and denominations and may differ on secondary issues, this is another great example of putting aside those secondary matters—as the late Dr. Walter Martindale advised—and focusing on the main thing. We unite, collaborate, pool our efforts, and work together to fight against cultic influences. I hope everyone enjoys the interview.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (10:10 – 11:16)
Dr. Hyungjoo Yang: Hi everyone, it’s wonderful to see you all. My name is Hyungjoo Yang, and I am the director of the Bible Vaccine Center.
Just as you might have heard of the COVID-19 vaccine, the Bible vaccine is meant to protect us from the false doctrines of Shincheonji and similar organizations. It is my pleasure to have Mr. Shin Hyungjoo with us today. Known as a “Shin Snake” within Shincheonji, he will be answering your questions shortly. Please join me in welcoming him. My name is Shin Hyungjoo, Pastor Shin. Do you have any basic questions for him?
[Steve] (11:17 – 11:24)
Yes, we are now interviewing Mr. Shin. What years were you involved with Shincheonji?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (11:30 – 11:38)
I joined Shincheonji in 1986 and left in 2006.
[Steve] (11:44 – 11:48)
What positions did you hold within Shincheonji?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (11:55 – 12:17)
Initially, I served as an education instructor and center instructor, overseeing the Seoul Church of Shincheonji. Later, I was promoted to head education director of Shincheonji.
[Steve] (12:17 – 12:19)
Was this role international or only in Korea?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (12:19 – 12:27)
It was solely in Korea. At that time, Shincheonji had no international missions—it was a very small group.
[Speaker 9] (12:27 – 12:28)
One of the seven educators.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (12:32 – 12:37)
I was the senior pastor of the Seoul Shincheonji Church.
[Steve] (12:39 – 12:53)
In Shincheonji’s interpretation of Revelation chapter 4—where John saw the 24 elders, four beasts, and representatives of various departments—were you considered one of those representatives?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (12:54 – 12:56)
Revelation chapter 4?
[Steve] (12:56 – 12:56)
Yes.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (12:56 – 12:57)
Could you please repeat that?
[Steve] (12:57 – 13:14)
John reportedly saw a vision in Revelation chapter 4 that included the 24 elders, four beasts, and representatives of the various departments within Shincheonji. Were you among those representatives?
[Pastor Young] (13:23 – 13:26)
Yes, I was one of the individuals representing the different departments within Shincheonji.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (13:27 – 16:37)
Indeed, I was one of them. This group included Mr. Lee Man-hee, the seven educators, the 12 tribal leaders, and the 24 elders—all of whom are meant to sit together—and I was one of those representatives.
[Steve] (16:37 – 16:38)
Very good.
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (16:38 – 17:38)
Very good. For now, the educators—the seven torches (lampstands) spirits—only have names. They don’t have any actual authority, position, or real power to organize or educate people. However, when he was in Shincheonji, he was just below Lee Man-hee. At that time, the organization was structured with Lee Man-hee at the top.
[Steve] (17:39 – 17:46)
Very good. So, would he be considered number two or number three in the church hierarchy?
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (17:48 – 18:35)
In Shincheonji’s ranking, there is a clear structure. At the top is the chairman, Lee Man-hee, who is considered to sit on the throne of God alongside Jesus. Under him are the seven educators, followed by 12 tribal leaders and 24 elders. In this hierarchy, he was directly below Mr. Lee, effectively ranking number two.
[Steve] (18:37 – 18:44)
How well did he know Mr. Lee? How much time did he spend with him? Did he often have meals with him or visit his house?
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (19:13 – 20:36)
Yes. He can’t even remember how many times he had a meal with Mr. Lee Man-hee because, as one of the seven torches (lampstands) spirits, he served as Mr. Lee’s eyes and ears. He received orders directly from Mr. Lee and communicated them to the people. Over the 20 years he spent in Shincheonji, he was constantly with Mr. Lee—so counting the meals doesn’t really make sense.
[Steve] (20:36 – 20:38)
You can’t even count that high.
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (20:39 – 20:44)
Exactly; he couldn’t count at all. He was always with Mr. Lee.
[Steve] (20:44 – 20:47)
He was directly taught by the new John.
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (20:51 – 20:53)
Yes, I was.
[Steve] (20:54 – 21:15)
Wow, okay. While he was close to Mr. Lee, did he ever observe any behavior—whether financial issues or inappropriate relationships with women, or any scandal—that made him question Mr. Lee’s character?
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (21:41 – 22:04)
Yes, he observed financial problems and issues involving women several times. However, even though we witnessed these problems, he never doubted him as a Paraclete.
[Steve] (22:05 – 22:09)
So he got too close to some of the female members of the church?
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (22:52 – 24:14)
He observed that behavior many times, but he was deeply indoctrinated. Even though he saw and heard about the rumors, it didn’t affect him. The point is that he is regarded as the new John and the new Messiah of this era. Due to his deep indoctrination in Shincheonji doctrine, such rumors didn’t cause him any trouble. In fact, many people who heard these rumors wouldn’t believe them, and for the top leaders aware of these issues, leaving Shincheonji wasn’t even considered because they were so thoroughly brainwashed by the doctrine.
[Steve] (24:14 – 24:31)
How about his temper—did Mr. Shin ever see outbursts of anger, revenge, or retaliation against members who didn’t follow his instructions? Were there instances when he lost his temper or had fits of rage?
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (24:42 – 24:45)
Never, ever.
[Steve] (24:45 – 24:46)
He was always very calm.
[Mr. Shin/ Pastor Yang] (24:55 – 25:03)
And in front of the Shincheonji congregation, he rarely showed his temper.
[Steve] (25:04 – 25:05)
“I’m asking more privately, though.”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (25:13 – 25:57)
“And revenge. He often lost his temper, but nobody would retaliate against him because he was regarded as a divine being in this world—never, ever. It’s similar to the North Korean leader, Mr. Kim Jong-un; anyone who dares to retaliate or provoke him faces impossible consequences, just as in Shincheonji.”
[Steve] (25:59 – 26:09)
“Did he ever portray himself as an actual savior for mankind at that time?”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (26:24 – 28:15)
“He never heard Mr. Lee command, ‘I am the winner, I am immortal, I am the savior,’ or anything similar. He never directly proclaimed to anyone that he was a divine being or immortal. Instead, Mr. Lee made people believe in his immortality and victory solely through the doctrine and Bible study. In Shincheonji, the instructors teach that, based on the Bible, there is someone who is immortal—the one who overcomes—and that this person is Mr. Lee. However, Mr. Lee never explicitly stated that he was immortal.”
[Steve] (28:15 – 28:37)
“But when did the church begin teaching that? Many members today say he’s immortal. He left in 2006. Did this teaching start after he left, or was it never mentioned there that he would not die—maybe even before he left?”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (28:57 – 33:58)
“Shincheonji members have believed that Mr. Lee is immortal since the early days of the movement. Everyone believed he was immortal. However, through the instructors, some comments have gradually emerged suggesting that Mr. Lee might die soon. Even though Mr. Lee never states that he is immortal or that he will die, people have caught on to the idea that he could die—even if he is likely immortal. This has led to a somewhat mixed doctrine. In hindsight, I believe Mr. Lee refrains from directly stating his immortality because, like previous self-proclaimed messiahs, he wants to avoid any legal responsibility for such claims. For example, when he left Shincheonji in 2006, Mr. Shin challenged Mr. Lee by pointing out numerous flaws in his books and writings, accusing him of making such claims. Mr. Lee responded by saying that he had never written or claimed those things, and that it was all a misinterpretation by Mr. Shin. That is his typical way of deflecting responsibility. Another example is the claim, mentioned in your question, that only by consuming his blood and flesh can people be saved—this is stated in one of Mr. Lee’s books. When Mr. Shin left Shincheonji in 2006 and attacked Mr. Lee on that point, Mr. Lee responded that the claim was not his, but a misinterpretation by Mr. Shin.”
[Steve] (33:58 – 34:00)
“He was made a scapegoat.”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (34:06 – 34:17)
“All Shincheonji members knew that—even though Mr. Lee claimed it was my fault—they understood it was indeed my fault.”
[Steve] (34:17 – 34:20)
“And that’s when they started calling him a snake.”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (34:20 – 34:46)
“Yes, since then he has been called a snake, which has convinced many that he is a fraud.”
[Steve] (34:46 – 34:52)
“I think the proper name for Brother Shin should be ‘Scapegoat Shin’ instead of ‘Snake Shin.'”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (35:23 – 35:40)
“Throughout all these events, he realized that Mr. Lee has no conscience at all—he’s a liar and not a normal human being.”
[Steve] (35:41 – 35:59)
“Right. I want to go back to what you just said. In the book where they discuss eating his flesh and blood—in English, we only have three or four Shincheonji books translated—was this the one about flesh and blood, like the ‘Revelation Fulfillment Book,’ or which book was it discussing?”
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (36:17 – 37:09)
In Shincheonji, they began publishing books in 1985, and around 20 books have been published so far. Shincheonji ordered that all the books published before Mr. Shin left Shincheonji be abolished. Only the books published after his departure are officially recognized.
[Steve] (37:09 – 37:13)
But which book specifically discusses the flesh and blood?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (37:17 – 37:20)
It’s The Reality of Revelation.
[Steve] (37:21 – 37:22)
We don’t have that in English.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (37:31 – 38:15)
The books were published in 1988, 1992, 1995, and then similar fulfillment books on revelation were published in 1997. All these books on revelation commonly mention Lee Man-hee’s blood and flesh. Until he left Shincheonji, eating Lee Man-hee’s flesh and blood was considered the only way to salvation. This was the normal doctrine in Shincheonji.
[Steve] (38:15 – 38:29)
And that’s understood spiritually, right? Because everything in Shincheonji is interpreted spiritually. So it was a spiritual eating and drinking—in other words, following the teachings of Lee Man-hee.
[Pastor Young] (38:29 – 38:39)
If you understand it spiritually, eating Lee Man-hee’s flesh and blood means following his teachings. It actually makes sense on a spiritual level.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (38:40 – 39:15)
That is the original Shincheonji doctrine. In the beginning, it was Jesus’ blood and flesh; in the end, it became St. John’s blood and flesh. In Jesus’ time, only Jesus’ words and his flesh and blood could save us. But during the time of the realization of revelation, salvation came only through the winners—through Mr. Lee’s blood and flesh, which is expressed in his teaching. That is the normal doctrine in Shincheonji.
[Steve] (39:15 – 39:28)
Here’s a good question: As the Director of Education for Shincheonji, was he directly responsible for the publication of those 20 books in Korean authored by Mr. Lee?
[Pastor Young] (39:29 – 39:37)
As the Director of Education for Shincheonji, was Lee Man-hee officially responsible for those 20 books?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (39:39 – 39:43)
I’m not sure; all of them were written by Lee Man-hee.
[Mr. Shin] (39:45 – 39:58)
And given the nature of the Shincheonji organization, it’s hard to imagine that someone like me would write a book that was published under Lee Man-hee’s name.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (40:00 – 40:02)
Ah, yes.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (40:03 – 41:45)
What did you say, Mr. Lee? All of them were written by Lee Man-hee. First of all, the back cover of each book lists Lee Man-hee as the author—you cannot deny that he is responsible for his writings. Second, in Shincheonji, no one can edit, add to, or delete his writings because he is considered a paraclete. His writing is viewed as a revelation from Jesus, so it must be preserved exactly as originally written. Even a high-ranking director, such as the Director of Education, cannot alter his writings. Moreover, in the preface of every book, he states that all his writings are not derived from human or seminary sources, but solely from revelation from Jesus. He has publicly claimed this in each preface.
[Steve] (41:45 – 41:50)
It’s what he saw and heard—the entire series of revelations. I’ve seen the names, the faces, everything.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (41:52 – 42:45)
There is also important testament and proof. As Mr. Lee claims, if Mr. Shin had edited Mr. Lee’s writings, he would not understand why he was appointed as head director for 20 years, or why he published all the books over that period. If he had edited or deleted content, he should have been considered a betrayer.
[Steve] (42:46 – 42:57)
Right, but here’s a good question. Just as the 12 tribal leaders were chosen by God, Jesus, and the angels, was he personally chosen by God, Jesus, and the angels for his position?
[Pastor Young] (42:59 – 43:08)
Just as the 12 tribal leaders were chosen by God, Jesus, and the angels, was he personally chosen by them for his position?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (43:09 – 43:58)
No, he was appointed by someone who wanted to appoint him. In his personal experience, it wasn’t done by the spirit; rather, the appointment was carried out by Lee Man-hee in a practical way—based on his private heart and mind, picking whoever he preferred. That is why the tribal leaders are constantly changed; if the spirit of Peter were truly with his tribal leader, that leader would not be changed. Instead, the changes occur because Lee Man-hee chooses based on his personal preferences.
[Steve] (43:58 – 44:08)
But he would claim divine guidance. So, does he hold a position of divine guidance?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (44:15 – 44:24)
He argues that his position is set because the Bible says so, but he also claims that people can be changed at any time. That is what Mr. Lee says.
[Steve] (44:25 – 44:42)
Was Mr. Shin raised in a Christian home? How did he become a Christian after leaving Shincheonji? It is often very hard—feeling all alone, losing all your friends when you leave a cult. Was he raised in a Christian home, or how did he first learn about the real Jesus?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (44:44 – 44:46)
Do you mean after he left?
[Steve] (44:46 – 44:53)
After he discovered that Mr. Lee was a false teacher, how did he return to the real Jesus—or was he raised in the faith already?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (45:09 – 47:38)
Looking back, it was only by God’s grace. He was a Christian even before joining Shincheonji. He had made a devotional commitment to God, aspiring to be His minister. He joined Shincheonji because he wanted to understand God more deeply and correctly. However, when he discovered that Shincheonji’s teachings were false, he believed he should return to the original Christian position he held before joining.
He thought simply that if he strayed and took a wrong path, he needed to go back to where he started. That was his reasoning.
On the other hand, many recent instructors in Shincheonji were not believers or Christians before they joined. When they realized Shincheonji was wrong, there was no previous foundation for them to return to. Consequently, most of them did not go back to the Christian faith—they abandoned it.
[Steve] (47:39 – 47:59)
I have one more question before Chris asks his. When he was leaving amid all these accusations and the scapegoating, he was also accused of embezzlement involving money. Can you provide some details about that?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (48:24 – 50:31)
This is a typical measure Shincheonji takes when members or leaders leave—so that the remaining members are not disturbed or confused. Shincheonji wants its people to maintain strong conviction that it is still the right place to be. Regarding the criticisms against Mr. Shin and those who left, he mentioned his money investment of $7 million.
If it were true—and if Shincheonji wanted to show proof by revealing the bank account—it would be unnecessary; they should instead take legal action.
If they had solid evidence of embezzlement, why haven’t they taken the matter to court? That remains the question.
[Steve] (50:31 – 50:35)
They did go to court, and Mr. Shin emerged as an overcomer, right?
[Pastor Young] (50:36 – 50:41)
He did not go to court and become an overcomer, right?
[Steve] (50:44 – 50:47)
He is the one who overcame.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (50:50 – 50:58)
They did not file any lawsuit against him, nor did they try to fight him because they had no evidence.
[Steve] (50:58 – 50:59)
It was just intimidation.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (50:59 – 51:32)
Yes, pure intimidation. They kept telling people that he had made a money investment but never took any legal steps against him. In fact, the best outcome for Shincheonji would have been to send him to prison. Why, then, did they do nothing?
[Steve] (51:32 – 51:58)
What are some of the major changes he witnessed within the church? For example, originally the seven trumpets in the Book of Revelation were represented by seven Korean men. Now, I believe the representation is entirely within the Shincheonji organization. There have been many changes in the interpretations of certain doctrines. What are some of the major doctrinal changes he has seen since his time as education director?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (52:15 – 53:24)
The core beliefs—or core doctrines—of Shincheonji are betrayal, destruction, and salvation. These three secrets of Revelation are extremely important, and only the so-called “new John” is privy to these secrets.
If these secrets are so critical, Mr. Lee must have been aware of the true nature of people. While the betrayers and destroyers are constantly changing, the savior remains unaltered. All the other betrayers and destroyers change continually.
[Steve] (53:24 – 53:25)
Can you give some examples?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] [53:32 – 57:04]
For example, consider the seven stars representing betrayers. In the initial phase, Yoo In Goo—also referred to as Immanuel—was not included; he was added later. Initially, Moses, Mr. Shin, and Shin Jong Han were included, but subsequently, Mr. Shin was replaced by Yoo In Goo. Mr. Lee then wrote a letter to the seven betrayers, which implies that he knew them personally. Yet, how can the identity of a person change continuously? If he truly addressed seven betrayers, their identities should have remained constant. The same issue arises with the seven heads representing destroyers.
In the beginning, Oh Pyeong Ho was included among the seven heads; later, he was replaced by Baek Dong Seop. Similarly, regarding the identity of the prostitute figure, Baek Dong Seop was the initial reference, which later changed to Tak Sung Hwan. In Revelation chapter 13, the beast with seven heads and ten horns from the sea was originally identified as Oh Pyeong Ho, but later became Tak Sung Hwan. Moreover, in Revelation 13:11, the beast from the earth was initially Choi Byung Jun, but was later changed to Oh Pyeong Ho.
Thus, both the betrayer and the destroyer figures were constantly changing. Altering a prophecy—even one that foretells future events—is a serious problem. Changing things that have already occurred means that the witness is a complete liar.
[Steve] [57:05 – 57:14]
He has seen and heard these things, and he states that anyone who alters, adds to, or subtracts from Revelation is tampering with it.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] [57:19 – 59:42]
Yes, indeed. Mr. Lee is the only one who truly perceived the reality of Revelation. If a witness changes his testimony, he ceases to be a valid witness. Imagine a courtroom where a witness constantly changes his account—would the judge accept his testimony? Certainly not.
Consider Revelation 6:6, which speaks of one wheat and three volleys. Initially, there was a concrete reality—not the one that is now claimed. Mr. Lee was the “wheat” (the one wheat), while Kim Jong-tae, Hong Jong-hyo, and Lee Man-chun—who were once part of Baek Man-bong’s church (Sadist Church)—formed the three volleys. (Originally, these individuals were from Bach’s Recreation Church.)
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] [59:42 – 1:00:02]
Is that what you’re saying? Bach’s… Bach’s. (I apologize for my poor Korean.) So, are you saying that Bach’s Recreation is where the original barley came from? Yes, indeed—it is from Bach’s church (Sadist Church), and they comprised the three volleys. My mind is being blown right now.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] [1:00:10 – 1:01:18]
Then, in 2002, those three individuals were no longer in Shincheonji, while the wheat (the one wheat) remained unchanged. The “three parts of Bali” were transformed into Ji Jae-suk (who was once a tribal leader of Peter in Gwangju), Yoon Yo-han, and Yoon Jae-myung. These three became known as the “three parts of Bali.” Nowadays, rather than referring to them as one part wheat and three parts Bali, they are simply described as a small group of people.
[Steve] [1:01:19 – 1:01:24]
What about the seven trumpets? Originally, they represented seven Korean men.
[Pastor Young] [1:01:25 – 1:01:28]
What is the true identity behind the seven trumpets? Weren’t they all actual people?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] [1:01:29 – 1:01:32]
They were all actual people. Dreams—yes. But did they change?
[Mr. Shin] [1:01:34 – 1:01:42]
The seven stars, seven horns, seven trumpets, and seven bows are all genuine.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] [1:01:43 – 1:06:22]
In this context, only the leader among the seven stars changed; the others remained the same. However, these individuals are no longer members of Shincheonji—they are those who left the organization. Their identities remained constant; Mr. Lee simply assigned the names of those who left to the corresponding prophetic roles. Thus, there are only seven stars, along with seven horns, seven trumpets, and seven bows.
Originally, all these figures were real people from the initial phase of Shincheonji, with only the identity linked to the seven stars being altered. The figures represented by the seven bowls, trumpets, and horns remained unchanged. Essentially, these individuals had departed from Shincheonji, and Mr. Lee merely applied the names he remembered to these roles—even though the original realities were different.
There are numerous instances where the purported reality does not align with what actually occurred. For example, in Revelation 6, there are four horses that represent different aspects of humanity. Therefore, these four horses should correspond to four individuals. When Mr. Lee taught that the four horses (the white, black, red, and pale horses) represented four different people, one member questioned why the white horse did not represent Mr. Lee. His reasoning was that, since Jesus rode a white horse, the one accompanying Jesus should be Mr. Lee. Mr. Lee, however, claimed that the white horse represented someone else. When confronted with this inconsistency, he dismissed the identity of the white horse and even insulted the questioner. This manipulation shows that the reality presented by Shincheonji is not divinely revealed but is instead a fabrication. The white horse is not the reality given by Jesus—it is a reality manufactured by Mr. Lee’s influence.
[Steve] (1:06:24 – 1:06:30)
Beautiful. How about the 144,000? Has that changed over the years too?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:06:34 – 1:07:02)
In the initial phase, the standard of 144,000 referred to the list of names in Shincheonji’s Kyojokbu Book of Life. That meant there were only 144,000 people recorded in Shincheonji’s Book of Life.
[Steve] (1:07:02 – 1:07:04)
No, a great multitude in white.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:07:06 – 1:08:20)
Another point to consider: at that time, the number of people was far fewer than 144,000. Shincheonji claimed that once you were enrolled in the Book of Life, your name was recorded and you would become a priest. Then all the white multitudes would come. This was the original argument of Shincheonji. It didn’t matter which tribe you belonged to—only that the total of 144,000 would eventually be filled. Then Mr. Lee claimed that once this number was reached, the revelation would be fulfilled. People came to believe that only when 144,000 names were recorded would God’s works be completed.
[Steve] (1:08:20 – 1:08:29)
In the end, when the revelation was fulfilled, there was no great multitude in white until the number got close to 144,000?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:08:30 – 1:09:01)
Right. In the year 2040, the 144,000 would be filled. After that, the doctrine concerning the 144,000 was changed. For example, in 2014—one might ask, has Shincheonji ever predicted the end of the world?
[Steve] (1:09:04 – 1:09:11)
He needs to explain more. No, I mean—like the end, when the revelation is fulfilled—did they ever set a date?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:09:11 – 1:11:04)
The World Mission Society Church of God set dates such as 1988, 1999, and 2012 during the early phase. In 1985, a book titled Shintan Birth of God was published, and in that book a specific date was set. He claimed that in seven years the entirety of God’s work would be fulfilled—from September 14, 1980, until September 14, 1987. The reason for this seven-year period was that, according to Genesis, God’s work of creation was completed in seven days. Thus, Shincheonji calculated one day as equivalent to one year, predicting that in seven years God’s work would be completed. So, 1980 marked the beginning.
[Steve] (1:11:06 – 1:11:09)
Not 84? That is interesting.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:11:09 – 1:12:27)
Why not 84 as the foundation day? Shincheonji was founded in 1980, on March 14—not 1984. Initially, the foundation date was 1980, but later, when Mr. Lee was imprisoned and his activities were suspended, the foundation day was postponed to 1984. The change was made after 1984, around September.
[Steve] (1:12:27 – 1:12:38)
So, the first members of Shincheonji started joining in 1984, even though the time of fulfillment originally started in 1980, and then it was changed in 1984. Yes?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:12:38 – 1:13:27)
Exactly. Shincheonji began in 1980—Mr. Lee started his ministry in 1980. Then, in 1984, he was imprisoned and his activities were suspended during the probation period. After the probation, he set March 14, 1984, as the foundation date.
[Steve] (1:13:27 – 1:13:31)
Did he start the church alone in 1980, or were there others with him?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:13:43 – 1:14:04)
In the beginning, there were about ten founding members. They were originally from Mr. Baek Man Bong’s Sardis Church, a re-creation church. Mr. Lee was a member of Sardis Church initially, which is why Mr. Baek’s influence is important here.
[Speaker 9] (1:14:06 – 1:14:10)
It’s important to mention that Sardis Church was a re-creation church.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:14:10 – 1:14:17)
Yes. After Sardis Church was re-created, Mr. Baek Man Bong made a declaration on March 13, 1980.
[Mr. Shin] (1:14:17 – 1:14:23)
He said, The end of the world is coming. Heaven will come, and the world will become an ocean of fire. As soon as the church was re-created…
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:14:23 – 1:14:25)
…from the very next day, Mr. Lee began his ministry.
[Pastor Young] (1:14:27 – 1:14:34)
Mr. Lee was one of the twelve disciples under Mr. Baek Man Bong.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:14:35 – 1:15:11)
Indeed, Mr. Lee was among the twelve disciples of Mr. Baek Man Bong in the re-creation Sardis Church. Mr. Baek prophesied that the end of the earth would come on March 13, 1980. So, everyone went up Cheonggye Mountain, and he said that if his prophecy was correct, the sun would be suspended in the sky. When the sun still rose, he declared that his prophecy had failed.
[Steve] (1:15:11 – 1:15:12)
And then the next day…
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:15:12 – 1:15:20)
On the following day, Mr. Lee recruited around ten people and started his own church.
[Steve] (1:15:20 – 1:15:28)
All ten of the first members of Shincheonji were from Mr. Baek’s re-creation church.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:15:35 – 1:15:38)
Exactly. And then, what about Mr. Hong?
[Steve] (1:15:42 – 1:16:00)
The two witnesses—Mr. Hong was a member too. Was anyone else famous in the history of Shincheonji? Did anyone come from Mr. Baek’s church? What about any of the seven messengers?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:16:02 – 1:16:24)
And Mr. Lee’s family members—Lee Man Chun, who is the younger brother of Lee Man Hee, was also under Baek Man Bong. Lee Man Chun, the younger brother of Lee Man Hee, left Shincheonji during its early phase.
[Steve] (1:16:25 – 1:16:54)
All these things we discussed tonight—the changes in apostasy and betrayal, the different parts of Revelation. As I mentioned before, there were only three or four books in English. Was all of this written in Korean texts that were later revised, like how the World Mission Society Church of God changed the later editions of their book? Or was it done verbally during sermons? Was it documented in the first edition and then changed in the second?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:17:07 – 1:17:09)
It’s constantly changed.
[Steve] (1:17:09 – 1:17:11)
But what about the different editions of the book?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:17:11 – 1:17:13)
Even the editions of the book are different.
[Steve] (1:17:13 – 1:17:20)
They kept changing—the names of the people were different in each edition. So if you get an early edition, it will have different names than a later edition.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:17:41 – 1:17:50)
The real names of reality do not appear in Lee Man Hee’s book—except in one book called…
[Speaker 9] (1:17:52 – 1:17:58)
Interest of Religious World. Which name is that? Which name is it?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:18:05 – 1:18:27)
All names, including those of betrayers and destroyers, are included in the book. But Mr. Kang, along with Mr. Tak and Mr. Oh—the beast from the earth, the beast from the sea—do we have the changed names in writing in Shincheonji’s early texts?
[Steve] (1:18:38 – 1:18:41)
It was always taught verbally; it wasn’t in writing.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:18:48 – 1:20:53)
He even dedicated himself to the people. But if you look closely at the book, there is proof that they changed the names of individuals. For example, in Revelation chapter 13, the beast from the sea—Mr. Lee claimed that the senior pastor of the first tabernacle, who reigned for 42 months, was the beast with seven heads and ten horns. If it was the senior pastor, then it must be Oh Pyung Ho. This allows us to indirectly identify Oh Pyung Ho as the beast from the sea. However, they now claim that the beast from the sea is Tak Sung Hwan. He constantly raised questions to Shincheonji about that reality, and then they claimed it had been changed to Cheong Jik Ee Kyo Ee Kwon.
[Speaker 9] (1:20:53 – 1:20:54)
SCJ
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:20:54 – 1:20:55)
SCJ
[Speaker 9] (1:20:55 – 1:20:58)
Steward Education Center.
[Steve] (1:20:58 – 1:21:02)
Stewardship Education Institute, SCI.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:21:02 – 1:21:05)
Steward Education Institute.
[Steve] (1:21:07 – 1:21:10)
SCI.
[Speaker 9] (1:21:10 – 1:21:14)
SCJ, SCI.
[Steve] (1:21:14 – 1:21:15)
I was taught SCI.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:21:16 – 1:21:56)
Steward Education Center—the changes in reality will raise a big problem. If Mr. Lee himself changed, it becomes an even bigger issue because Mr. Lee changed after Mr. Shin raised questions constantly.
[Steve] (1:21:57 – 1:22:06)
Before we sign off, are there any other changes that are really important that haven’t been mentioned yet?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:22:17 – 1:24:18)
Daniel’s business trip is more complicated, but he didn’t mention it. Kim Moo Ri didn’t have a spiritual life, yet he claimed he did. One thing he can tell is about the white multitude. Previously, the immortality of the 144,000 was limited to those 144,000 and not extended to the white multitudes. But what I raised was not about the 144,000 in Revelation 7. Why did Kim Moo Ri set up a barrier? He raised the issue that if you look at Revelation, God pitched a tent—not for the 144,000, but for the white multitudes. If the tabernacle of the spiritual realm pitches a tent into the physical realm, that represents salvation and eternal life. If the white multitudes in Revelation 7 pitch a tent in the spiritual realm, then Shincheonji claimed that the period during which the white multitudes gather is a thousand years.
[Speaker 9] (1:24:20 – 1:24:24)
Healing the nations—healing the nations.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:24:24 – 1:24:26)
That is called healing the nations.
[Steve] (1:24:26 – 1:24:27)
The leaves…
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:24:27 – 1:26:35)
That should be accomplished during the thousand years. This means that after a thousand years the tabernacle will come down. He raised the question of what happens after a thousand years or now. He raised that question for Shincheonji, which had long awaited the filling of the 144,000. But if the tabernacle is pitched after a thousand years, then Mr. Lee and all the Shincheonji members will die. Shincheonji will not only fill the 144,000 but also the white multitudes. So, after his claims, Shincheonji changed their doctrine: not only will the 144,000 be saved, but the white multitudes will also be saved. The 144,000 will reign as kings, while the white multitudes will be the people of God’s kingdom. In conclusion, Mr. Shin revived the idea of the white multitudes attaining immortality.
[Steve] (1:26:35 – 1:26:44)
What about the people who get a second chance? Was that always taught in Shincheonji? Were those who get a second chance always part of Shincheonji’s teaching?
[Mr. Shin] (1:26:44 – 1:26:52)
So, if people die before hearing the open word, Jesus and the Spirit will preach to them. Was that taught in Shincheonji before?
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:27:01 – 1:27:04)
Yes, it was taught long before.
[Steve] (1:27:04 – 1:27:50)
This has been a wonderful, once-in-a-lifetime chance. We want to thank you, Mr. Shin. Kamsahamnida. Please finish with one thing: For the Shincheonji member watching this—speak to the person who is doubting, who is wondering if they should leave or if this is truly the kingdom of God. Speak to that person who is sitting on the fence, perhaps hesitant to talk to someone now, and urge them to come to the real Jesus.
[Pastor Young] (1:27:53 – 1:27:56)
Do you want him to talk about it?
[Steve] (1:27:56 – 1:28:15)
Tell the Shincheonji member who is ready to leave, who is thinking of leaving, to come to the real Jesus. What would you want to share with him? He has doubts; he isn’t sure he wants to leave.
[Mr. Shin / Pastor Yang] (1:28:23 – 1:32:44)
I fully understand the psychological state of Shincheonji members now. Those who recently joined Shincheonji will live happily because they believe they will uncover the secrets of heaven, the parables, and the revelations—and they will enjoy many happy times. However, for those who have been with Shincheonji for over 10 or 15 years, many say they will eventually leave after witnessing Mr. Lee’s death. They hesitate to leave now because they have invested all their energy, money, and time. They have deep doubts and also a lingering fear: What if Shincheonji is right? They may even think, Mr. Lee is over 93 years old—he is very old. So soon, the truth about our reality will be revealed as either true or false. If Mr. Lee dies, there will be a significant change. But waiting until Mr. Lee dies is a foolish decision. Why gamble with Mr. Lee’s life? If you investigate further, you will soon find that Mr. Lee will die soon. Yet, if you wait until his death and remain in Shincheonji, that is a very unwise option. One of my final words for you is: stop there. Evaluate whether your current path is right and if the expectations you have are realistic. Shincheonji continually teaches you that the internet is the fruit of good and evil. I recommend you research the internet to discover what Shincheonji is truly about. Once you start searching, you will quickly realize that you are all trapped in a prison they have set up for you.
Former Shincheonji Senior Leader Speaks Out
Date: October 26, 2023 (Based on the provided source which is a transcript of a recent interview)
Source: Excerpts from “Former Shincheonji Senior Leader SPEAKS OUT! (With @TheCultishShow) youtube video, featuring an interview with a former high-ranking leader in Shincheonji, referred to as “Mr. Shin” (formerly known as “Snake Shin”), conducted by Jordan from Great Light Studios and the team from the Cultish Podcast (Jeremiah, Steve, and Chris), with translation provided by Pastor Yang of the Bible Vaccine Center.
Purpose: This overview summarizes the main themes, important ideas, and facts revealed during an interview with a former senior leader of the Shincheonji Church of Jesus, the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony (Shincheonji). The interview provides a rare insider perspective on the history, doctrines, leadership, and changes within Shincheonji, particularly focusing on its leader, Lee Man-hee.
Main Themes and Key Points
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Significance of the Interviewee:
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Mr. Shin served as a high-ranking member of Shincheonji for approximately 20 years (1986–2006).
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He was the director of education for Shincheonji in Korea, ranking directly below chairman Lee Man-hee and was considered “number two” 17:48–18:35.
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As one of the seven educators, he held significant influence within Shincheonji’s interpretation of Revelation 16:38–17:38.
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He knew Lee Man-hee very well, acting as his “eyes and ears” by receiving direct orders and spending significant time with him 19:13–20:36.
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His defection and willingness to speak out have been compared to a “John Travolta defecting from Scientology” or a “first counselor in the Mormon church” speaking out 5:01–5:11.
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Within Shincheonji, he is now known as “Snake Shin” and is labeled as the “ultimate betrayer” 3:59 and 4:00–4:14.
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Shincheonji’s Infiltration Tactics and Deceptive Methods:
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The collaboration behind this interview aims to reach a wider audience, as Shincheonji is described as a “dangerous cult infiltrating churches across denominations… using deceptive methods” 2:03–2:11.
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The information shared is considered “crucial” to help people break free from Shincheonji’s influence 0:00–1:00.
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The interview offers “hard, first-hand information in English from someone who was an insider at a high level” 4:16–5:00.
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Questionable Character and Actions of Lee Man-hee:
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Mr. Shin observed financial issues and multiple instances involving women concerning Lee Man-hee 21:41–22:04 and 22:52–24:14.
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Despite witnessing these issues, due to deep indoctrination, Mr. Shin “never doubted him as a Paraclete” 21:41–22:04.
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Although Lee Man-hee rarely showed his temper publicly, he often lost his temper in private, and no one dared retaliate because of his perceived divine status—compared to North Korean leader Kim Jong-un 25:13–25:57.
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Lee Man-hee never explicitly claimed to be “immortal” or the “savior.” Instead, he made people believe in his immortality and victory solely through doctrine and Bible study 26:24–28:15. Instructors taught that “the one who overcomes” in the Bible referred to Mr. Lee and was therefore immortal.
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Shincheonji members have believed in Lee Man-hee’s immortality since its early days 28:57–33:58.
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Mr. Shin challenged Lee Man-hee on claims made in his books—such as the necessity of consuming his flesh and blood for salvation—with Lee Man-hee deflecting responsibility by citing misinterpretation 33:58–34:00.
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Consequently, Mr. Shin was labeled a “snake” and a “fraud” 34:17–34:46, and he concluded that Lee Man-hee has “no conscience at all—he’s a liar and not a normal human being” 35:23–35:40.
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Doctrinal Shifts and Inconsistencies:
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Shincheonji ordered the abolishment of all books published before Mr. Shin left in 2006 36:17–37:09.
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The doctrine requiring the consumption of Lee Man-hee’s flesh and blood for salvation was prevalent until Mr. Shin’s departure and was detailed in the book The Reality of Revelation 37:17–38:15 and 38:40–39:15. This practice was understood spiritually as following his teachings.
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The identities of key figures in Shincheonji’s interpretation of Revelation (e.g., the seven stars, seven heads/destroyers, the prostitute, the beasts) have changed over time, with individuals being replaced. Mr. Shin questioned the validity of these constantly shifting prophetic figures 52:15–57:04 and 1:01:29–1:06:22.
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The interpretation of Revelation 6:6 (one wheat and three volleys) has also been altered, with the representing individuals changing over time 57:19–1:01:18.
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The understanding of the 144,000 has evolved. Initially, it referred to those listed in Shincheonji’s “Book of Life.” The concept of a “great multitude in white” was said to follow the filling of the 144,000 1:06:34–1:08:20. Later, the doctrine expanded to include the salvation and potential immortality of the white multitudes, partly due to questions raised by Mr. Shin 1:22:17–1:26:35.
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Shincheonji initially set a date for the fulfillment of God’s work in 1987, based on a seven-year interpretation of creation 1:09:11–1:11:04.
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The foundation date of Shincheonji was originally 1980 but was later postponed to 1984 after Lee Man-hee’s imprisonment 1:11:09–1:13:27.
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Origins of Shincheonji:
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Shincheonji originated from Mr. Baek Man Bong’s “Sardis Church,” a re-creation church. Lee Man-hee was one of Baek Man Bong’s twelve disciples 1:13:43–1:15:11.
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Mr. Baek Man Bong prophesied the end of the world on March 13, 1980—a prophecy that did not come to pass 1:14:17–1:15:11.
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The day after this failed prophecy, Lee Man-hee established his own church, recruiting approximately ten people from Baek’s re-creation church 1:15:12–1:15:28.
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Treatment of Former Members:
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Accusations of embezzlement are a common tactic Shincheonji uses when members or leaders leave, serving both to discourage departures and to reinforce commitment among remaining members 48:24–50:31.
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Despite accusing Mr. Shin of embezzling $7 million, Shincheonji never pursued legal action due to a lack of evidence, suggesting that the accusations were intended primarily as intimidation 50:31–51:32.
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Many former members—especially those who were not Christians before joining—often abandon their faith entirely because they lack a foundational belief system. Mr. Shin, who was a Christian before joining, felt compelled to return to his original faith 45:09–47:38.
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Advice for Current Shincheonji Members:
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Mr. Shin urges current members who have doubts to “stop there” and evaluate whether their current path is correct and if their expectations are realistic 1:32:44.
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He recommends that members research Shincheonji online—even though the group teaches that the internet is “the fruit of good and evil”—so they can discover the truth and realize that they are “trapped in a prison” set up by the organization 1:28:23–1:32:44.
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He cautions against waiting for Lee Man-hee’s death to determine the truth, calling it a “foolish decision” and a “very unwise option” given the investments members have made and their fear of being proven wrong.
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Notable Quotes
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Jeremiah:
“In comparison, this is equivalent to John Travolta defecting from Scientology and then doing a tell-all. That’s the level of revelation we’re talking about.”
5:01–5:10 -
Mr. Shin (translated):
“For years, he was the number-two person in the Shincheonji cult, serving as the director of education.”
3:59 -
Chris:
“He is considered the ultimate betrayer—one of them, at that—and he is an example of someone who was filled with seven evil spirits, now actively speaking out against Shincheonji.”
4:00–4:14 -
Mr. Shin (translated):
“Yes, he observed financial problems and issues involving women several times. However, even though we witnessed these problems, he never doubted him as a Paraclete.”
21:41–22:04 -
Mr. Shin (translated):
“He never heard Mr. Lee command, ‘I am the winner, I am immortal, I am the savior,’ or anything similar. He never directly proclaimed to anyone that he was a divine being or immortal. Instead, Mr. Lee made people believe in his immortality and victory solely through doctrine and Bible study.”
26:24–28:15 -
Mr. Shin (translated):
“Until he left Shincheonji, eating Lee Man-hee’s flesh and blood was considered the only way to salvation. This was the normal doctrine in Shincheonji.”
37:31–38:15 -
Mr. Shin (translated):
“Throughout all these events, he realized that Mr. Lee has no conscience at all—he’s a liar and not a normal human being.”
35:23–35:40 -
Mr. Shin (translated):
“If you investigate further, you will soon find that Mr. Lee will die soon. Yet, if you wait until his death and remain in Shincheonji, that is a very unwise option… I recommend you research the internet to discover what Shincheonji is truly about. Once you start searching, you will quickly realize that you are all trapped in a prison they have set up for you.”
1:28:23–1:32:44
Conclusion
This interview with a former high-ranking leader provides significant insights into the inner workings of Shincheonji. Mr. Shin’s testimony reveals a history of doctrinal changes, inconsistencies, questionable behavior by the leader, and manipulative tactics employed by the organization. His willingness to speak out—despite his previous high status and the negative labels attached to him—underscores the gravity of his concerns and offers valuable information for those seeking to understand or leave Shincheonji. The collaboration between Great Light Studios and the Cultish Podcast reflects a unified effort within the broader Christian community to address what they consider a dangerous cult.